@Joseph Burrell said:

He's already paid over 8 grand for VSL samples? Plus the 4 grand for the Standard library + the Extended upgrade. That's over 12 grand for what a new user would pay less than 11,000 dollars for.

Ah, I see what you mean. However, having used the samples for the last year and a half I am not complaining that the upgrade is not free, as it would have to be to in order to be the same price as for new users. I can't think of any software that makes the total sum spent the same as the price for new users, after all us oldies have had plenty of use out of the product. Also, if the new sample count is almost twice what it is in Pro Edition, shouldn't your friend be paying another $8000 for it, never mind the new programming, sample player etc?
I'm afraid that I have no sympathy for your friend. When I trade my car in for a new one I don't cry about the fact that first time buyers of the new model will have paid less than I have in total.

DG

DG,

Your point is well taken but there needs to be a middle ground. By some calculations there is a penalty for being a longtime user, not even a small discount.

So while I add up my 1st ed., chambers, etc., I don't expect that the upgrade will be:

(New price) minus (old prices) = VIP price

I DO, however expect there to be a significant incentive to being a long time member. Sure, we've had the great fortune of having these remarkable tools available for a good while but we've also been subjected to the growing pains of the perf tool, etc.

To make a member pay more than a new customer is just plain silly.

I will cheerfully pay for upgrades to the new integrated player/interface. I would rather not pay full price for a 24 bit upgrade though a small upgrade for that COULD be appropriate depending on the amount. I have the samples already. VSL does too. They just gave us 16 bit versions to be more RAM friendly. To charge us again for these samples that they already sold us is against their policy.

Clark

Well, we'll just have to agree to disagree, after all, the cost, even for a full upgrade, is not that large [:)]

DG

I know it's early days, but could Herb and Co. state somewhere exactly how much VI will cost?

I've been reading this thread and the main VI price page and am now completely confused. Is it 2, 3 or 11 grand?

VI is stunning, but the price structure is, well, numbing... so far.

Or perhaps some of us musicians just aren't too bright. [:)]

Its been confirmed that the total package (standard+extended) will cost $10,990 US dollars.

The standard library, EVERYONE must purchase, with the VIP discount being a part of the Extended upgrade.

So everyone's in for a $4,620 purchase, no matter if you're new or not.

TBH, it's a huge step up from its predecessor, and no other library can touch it. It's just too be to be an 'upgrade'. So I think the price is justified.

Anyway: are the current prices the typcal 'full price', or is there an introductory offer of some kind? THe page titled 'introductory offer' doesn't seem to have one for the Cube, just that we'd pay half now + half later. Am i missing something? Reckon i should just give it some time...

Over 500gigs, 24 bit samples, an instrument that seems to be as intuitive as we could hope for, automated articulation, light years ahead of the nearest competition, a company that takes giant leaps in a single bound, loads of free samples for users, and regular additions. In additiion to a pricing structure that has been fair, with generous discounts for users. And a sample library that you will be able to exploit almost to its entirety, with automation taken over most of the input work, giving us more time to write and earn more money? (If we're good enough).
And the likelyhood of the same generous additions in the future, no doubt with additional patches to come, more and more articulations.
On top of that you get a free symphonic organ as well!

The discount calculator isn't up yet, and many of you are already jumping to conclusions that may be wildly inaccurate, computationally wrong, and with no shadow of patience to wait and find out the facts.

I'm with DG on this one. Many of you have had much use and made money out of VSL, as i hope all of you will now and in the future. Would you get a new for new price in any product industry at any time? Seems premature and a case of wanting something for nothing to me.
Did Logic provide a free upgrade? Did Sibelius tell all those version 3 users they could have the next version for nothing?
I've seen any posts here commenting about the limitations of software, VST/AU, etc. Now you have a chance to get by most of that, and you want it for next to nothing?
Back to reality.

Alex.

I don't really care since I don't own anything but the Solo Strings. I can just imagine the heartburn many long time VSL users have. My friend was pretty miffed, and I understand, since there was basically no advantage to him giving VSL his money over the years. He's been a long time supporter and has every product but the Concert Guitar, and he doesn't get any benefit from it at all.

So, I'm just laying it out. They don't have to listen or care. Just know that not everyone is happy with the pricing structure, and I for one can understand since just about anyone can get a better deal on it than the long standing VSL users.

@Joseph Burrell said:

. there was basically no advantage to him giving VSL his money over the years. He's been a long time supporter and has every product but the Concert Guitar, and he doesn't get any benefit from it at all.

No consumer in the free market buys a product that has 'no advantage', except your friend who seems to have bought the collection.

He got exactly what he paid for on the day: the best product of its kind on the market.

Sorry to be so retaliatory Sir, and I understand, respect, and accept your POV as valid, but i'm finding all this criticism over the SC's prices unfair and a little hard to swallow.

As someone else said, "we'll have to agree to disagree."

I don't particularly care, I'm just seeing his side of the arguement. It just seemed to go against the policy of 'buy it now and you'll save in the end.'

@Joseph Burrell said:

As someone else said, "we'll have to agree to disagree."

On one hand, you're probably right [:)] .

on the other hand:

-cost of CSC to new user: e5,300
-cost of CSC to PE owner: e3,900

anyway, it's up to everyone how badly they want it! So for the sake of peace, i'll drop it.

I think First Edition should be un-discontinued and sold for 500 USD/EUR or so.

Some of us can afford 5000+ USD/EUR for VI? Good.

But if one can't, it makes no sense, to me, to negate him a "discontinued" orchestra. He will be out of the game anyway and VSL will take no profit from poorest musicians.

@Joseph Burrell said:

I don't really care since I don't own anything but the Solo Strings. I can just imagine the heartburn many long time VSL users have. My friend was pretty miffed, and I understand, since there was basically no advantage to him giving VSL his money over the years. He's been a long time supporter and has every product but the Concert Guitar, and he doesn't get any benefit from it at all.

So, I'm just laying it out. They don't have to listen or care. Just know that not everyone is happy with the pricing structure, and I for one can understand since just about anyone can get a better deal on it than the long standing VSL users.

For goodness sake, your friend does get an advantage; he get's the extended library for next to nothing. How much clearer can that be? [8-)]

DG

Only after dropping $13,000 dollars? That's free? When I can buy it for 11 grand? How's that a benefit to him? It isn't.

And anyway, you don't understand the point of the arguement at all.

The point is, he felt that by buying into VSL years ago and supporting them through all this time that he eventually would end up better off.

Adding up the cost of what he's paid in and what someone can come in off the street and pay, he ends up worse. That's his gripe and I understand it completely. It was said long ago that users buying in early would never pay more than new users. It appears that isn't true at all. Since new users can effectively buy the whole shooting match right now and save more than he can. I don't care about the extended library discount since when you add it all up, he still paid more in the end. That's the bottom line and that's the arguement.

I'm done with it.

@Joseph Burrell said:

And anyway, you don't understand the point of the arguement at all.

The point is, he felt that by buying into VSL years ago and supporting them through all this time that he eventually would end up better off.

Adding up the cost of what he's paid in and what someone can come in off the street and pay, he ends up worse. That's his gripe and I understand it completely. It was said long ago that users buying in early would never pay more than new users. It appears that isn't true at all. Since new users can effectively buy the whole shooting match right now and save more than he can. I don't care about the extended library discount since when you add it all up, he still paid more in the end. That's the bottom line and that's the arguement.

I'm done with it.

No, I'm afraid that you don't understand. Your friend still has the Pro Edition; you don't, even if you both buy the extended version. It's like still having the old car when you do the trade in for a new one. Having used the samples for years must have some financial implication. For example, I've been using Sibelius since 1993, so I'm bound to have paid more to the company than someone who has just bought Sibelius 4. So in effect I have paid well over £2000 for a product that is worth (to the new customer) £500.

However I will admit that if I was doing the pricing for VSL, I would have given existing customers a discount on the Standard content and less of a discount on the Extended content, but in the end it you buy it all it will probably make no difference.

DG

i own the pro edition and the epic horns.

i want the new VI. How much will it cost me for the upgrade?

that's all.

DG,

No, you have it wrong. This car metaphor is totally wrong when you think about it. The new car/software thing you refer to is flawed because:

This new package is supposed to replace the old one. Sure we can hold on to the old media. However, we don't pay for the media. We pay for the License to Use These Samples. Therefore, we shouldn't be charged twice for this license. PERIOD.

Sure the samples are at a new resolution. So what? We've already paid the licensing fees. So there is a new interface. So what? We've already paid for the license to use these sounds.

When I upgrade Logic I pay less than new buyers. When anyone upgrades anything they pay less than new buyers. PERIOD.

Clark

I am very much on clark's side. The samples by nature are a LICENSED product. If you pay to license a Britney Spears recording, you can use that segment of the song you license, or if it's the whole song, at any sample rate, sample format, bit rate or what not you choose. If we use her song in a movie we can play it back at 32 kbps audio for all they care, so long as it was properly licensed.

The issue that I agree with clark about is that we ALREADY licensed these samples. The fact that we have to pay the EXACT same price as others just opening the gate of VSL is, in all honesty, ridiculous. To expect that individuals who have already licensed the new material have to RE-LICENSE the EXACT SAME material is completely against the whole concept of licensing something. To expect past users to pay to acquire the 24 bit version of the samples along with some kind of other cost to integrate their old system with the new VI is in many ways a lot more reasonable to individuals who have been using the product for some time now.

With that said, it is a mere opinion on the situation. There are definitely greater forces that surround the project than your average junior member on the VSL forums, but I still do honestly hold Herb and every one of his team members in the highest respect, and simply reserve my right to hold my own opinion as far as what direction the project is now going.

-Tim

@DG said:

No, I'm afraid that you don't understand. Your friend still has the Pro Edition; you don't, even if you both buy the extended version. It's like still having the old car when you do the trade in for a new one. Having used the samples for years must have some financial implication. For example, I've been using Sibelius since 1993, so I'm bound to have paid more to the company than someone who has just bought Sibelius 4. So in effect I have paid well over £2000 for a product that is worth (to the new customer) £500.
DG

While I can see both sides of the argument well enough, the Sibelius example may not be the best illustration. If you paid, say £500 for Sibelius when you first bought it and £100 a year for an upgrade, that would be a lot different than paying over £500 for one single upgrade when you could save money by just buying a whole new license.

Likewise with the used car example, it doesn't make sense to trade in a car and see no net deduction for your trade if you are still paying the same or more for a new car as another person who did not have a vehicle to trade. Why bother trading when starting from scratch is cheaper?

Even if one sets aside thoughts of accumulated investments, loyal members really ought not pay *the same* as new customers for the single standard upgrade. Even Apple didn't force Logic users to pay $1000+ to upgrade to Pro 7. It was more than what Emagic used to charge, but it wasn't anywhere close to being the same as buying a new bundle outright.

It's clear, to me anyway, that SC is indeed largely a whole different ball of wax, but much about these price points and discounts is getting lost in translation. We really should wait until the Discount Calculator is up and running before drawing too many definite conclusions. There were similar issues with PE users when some of the Horizon series first appeared-- and that was resolved quite nicely, imho.

One thing of interest would be whether my PE would work with VI. I may in fact have all the samples I need for now, for PE is still serving me well. Having 24-bit is VERY nice but it may not be financially feasible for everyone without a project or enough projects to justify getting the whole SC right away. The early bird discounts are doing little to encourage me to make the leap immediately. I have no use, for example, for a pipe organ *right now*, but I'll need a great one "whenever the time comes"-- meaning: I can do with out the organ today.

But if PE were compatible with VI, I'd feel a lot better. I'd get VI first in a heartbeat right away if it were available as an Extension to PE as well as SC. Maybe this info is in the videos or the fine print on the VSL home page, but I've not had a chance to get through everything just yet. I'm dreaming, probably, and will have to live with Perf Tools at least until this whole SC-VIP matter gets sorted out.

Edit-- Well, I just sorted out that VI is an entirely different structure that will not read ESX24 format.

Now-- the word "convert" is suddenly very attractive...!! [[:|]]