Surely Rob we don't need anymore developers. Rather we would want VSL to go on developing and improving and introducing more inovation. Of course musicians will buy more than one library, especially when one considers other makers make libs that are not specifically orchestral. What one doesn't want to see, as I alluded to very early in this thread (although some of it was obviously lost in translation) is any company suddenly having cash-flow problems or whatever and going out of business. Discounts are fine in the short term, but I would rather have long - term developement and pay whatever the cost is to be honest as opposed to short term gain (and then it's only gain if you actually want the specific item in the first place).

Call me old fashioned, but I think of it as customer loyalty. [[;)]]

@Nick Batzdorf said:

Do you have specific ideas about how things will change, Rich, or just speculating in general?

He.He Pretty much speculating in general. I think things will have to really evolve if samples will have any real validity outside the multimedia world, one would really have to be able to PERFORM with samples better not just program. Thats one reason a real Performing string quartet will always blow away a perfectly programmed piece using samples. I think Physical Modelling will have a big role in the future of samples. Tassmans doing some nice things. But not to be unappreciative of the strides and efforts that going on now ~ if u`d told me 3 years ago about a VSL Performance Set of this magnitude or an Orch. Library that was recorded in a world class hall with 3 mic positions and surround capabilities i wouldn`t have believed you!! So one can only imagine the ideas and advancements 3 years from now. I`m a guitarist (35 years now) and i have to say I`m pretty blown away by NI`s guitar rig and AldrenaLinn 2.. what do u think, Nick ? Wheres all this stuff going? [:)] Rich

I agree with you, Rich. The performance interface is way behind the samples.

"I think things will have to really evolve if samples will have any real validity outside the multimedia world, one would really have to be able to PERFORM with samples better not just program. " - Rich Pell

Oh really?

Gee, I didn't realize that.

I'm working in the "multimedia world." Gosh, I thought I was just doing some music. And that it might have some validity. But no - it couldn't, because it's entirely within...

"the multimedia world."

Thanks for those tips!

I think you misunderstand, William. Nobody is insulting music for media.

The point Rich is making is that as long as you have to select different articulations all the time, you're programming rather than performing.

I believe some of the negative comments made about group buys are a little on the fearful side.

Group buys can work in a developer's favour as they draw in new customers that otherwise would not have made a purchasing decision at that time. As has been stated before, the upgrade path is a great potential for further benefits to the developer. Once people use these tools they may be convinced to stay with the company if the tools are of high quality (which I'm sure would also work in VSL's favour).

Group buys do not take away future potential buyers. People aren't going to think "well there was a group buy recently so I can't buy this product now". Provided the group buys for a given product don't happen too frequently no one that is ready to invest in a library is going to hold off for a year or so in anticipation of a group buy.

Developers benefit, customers benefit (old and new, as the company becomes stronger through a greater user base), and we see growth for future developments. In my opinion a win/win situation for all.

It can be dangerous to sit at the top (quality wise) and ignore what's happening below (avid and digidesign come to mind). While I do think most VSL products are good value, for the professional and considering what you get, I also think you have to remain competitive. I hope VSL isn't taking the elitist approach.

Tom

TomH - Judging from your account, you are new to the Vienna Symphonic Library, otherwise you would know that we have chosen the most elitist approach: making an unparalleled product even better by listening to its users.

That doesn't necessarily mean "making it cheaper", though ... [H]

/Dietz

@TomH said:

I believe some of the negative comments made about group buys are a little on the fearful side.

Group buys can work in a developer's favour as they draw in new customers that otherwise would not have made a purchasing decision at that time. As has been stated before, the upgrade path is a great potential for further benefits to the developer. Once people use these tools they may be convinced to stay with the company if the tools are of high quality (which I'm sure would also work in VSL's favour).

Group buys do not take away future potential buyers. People aren't going to think "well there was a group buy recently so I can't buy this product now". Provided the group buys for a given product don't happen too frequently no one that is ready to invest in a library is going to hold off for a year or so in anticipation of a group buy.

Developers benefit, customers benefit (old and new, as the company becomes stronger through a greater user base), and we see growth for future developments. In my opinion a win/win situation for all.

It can be dangerous to sit at the top (quality wise) and ignore what's happening below (avid and digidesign come to mind). While I do think most VSL products are good value, for the professional and considering what you get, I also think you have to remain competitive. I hope VSL isn't taking the elitist approach.

Tom

Great points Tom i totally agree..Rich

@Dietz said:

TomH - Judging from your account, you are new to the Vienna Symphonic Library, otherwise you would know that we have chosen the most elitist approach: making an unparalleled product even better by listening to its users.

That doesn't necessarily mean "making it cheaper", though ... [H]

/Dietz

But u see.. One makes it cheaper for a time, to make it MORE lucrative for your company in the long run .Draw more people in who could where sitting on the fence and will UPGRADE to Pro in the future. Its a long run thing,and Its working! But I`m wasting my time (when i could be composing with VSL) ,I know u guys wont do it.. [[;)]] Rich

@Nick Batzdorf said:

I think you misunderstand, William. Nobody is insulting music for media.

The point Rich is making is that as long as you have to select different articulations all the time, you're programming rather than performing.

Thanks Nick. That is what i meant. Why would i criticise the very field I`m in ( I compose for Film and T.V)? Perhaps the VSL team will one day come up with a way (an Special Tool or Notational interface?) to perform in a more natural way with these samples to give greater expression to there Lib. If its such an obvious thing, then why has no one done it...The Perf. Tool is definately a step in the right direction! Rich

Some people prefer "just programming." It is the modern version of writing out a score. Not inferior at all to dicking around with a keyboard.

And performing parts really well is superior to dicking around with a mouse. [:)]

Seriously, I - and I'm sure most people - use a combination of "entry" methods to massage things into sounding right. We're talking about improving what I consider the most important one. That doesn't involve taking away your favorite one.

One thing that should be noted is that EWQLSO GOLD GROUP BUY is currently at 417 with 9 days left...

417 x $398 = $165,966

...

I bought Opus 1 at the start of this year. I dont regret it one bit! I would not hold it againist VSL if they did introduce a group buy. I understand what you guys at VSL are thinking. However you dont have to reduce it by 60%. You can structure a group buy however you like. Maybe it will peak at 30% off... ? Either way you really should consider doing something.

I spend alot of money on sample libraries and believe that group buys benifit both the developer and the customer. If past customers are really unhappy about it, offer them a discount on another library... Say they brought opus1 one month ago. Now they are annoyed that it's 30% off. Offer them another library of choice at 30% off. You will find that even though they may have not wanted to buy anymore libraries at this point, now in fact they may jump at the offer. Which in turn will end up being even more successful for both you and the customer.

I think group buys go beyond a quick way to make money. They would bring more paying customers to experince VSL. And then they will buy more products in the future.

Just think of what EWQL can do now that they have made a quick $165,966 and it's still growing. They can put some of that money into expanding the business and recording more sample libraries. Which in turn will benifit everyone (except the competition).

All I ask is that you seriously consider it. I truely hope that VSL can be apart of it.

@Peter Wayne said:

417 x $398 = $165,966

...

Well, for us poor guys it seems to be a lot of money. But I think VSL prefers to sell 417 copies for the original price... [:D]

@Peter Wayne said:

417 x $398 = $165,966

...

Well, for us poor guys it seems to be a lot of money. But I think VSL prefers to sell 417 copies for the original price... [:D]
I think you are missing the point! How many of those 417 people would not have bought the library in the first place? There is no way that EWQL would have sold anywhere near those figures in a matter of weeks at the orginal price. Although $165,966 may not seem like alot. You have to understand that a large percentage of this money did not existed without this group buy.

I would definitely go in on a group buy for Opus 1 as opposed to the EWQLSO GOld Edition. I already have Silver Edition with Silver Pro on its way in March or whenever. But I've been continually knocked out by the VSL samples and the performance tool features such as "legato" patches. I only have a couple that came with my Gigastudio 3.0 Solo version but they are really outstanding sounds. This library, above all else, has gotten the closest to emulating a real instrument. It's actually scary how good these sounds are....

@dcoscina said:

[...] This library, above all else, has gotten the closest to emulating a real instrument. It's actually scary how good these sounds are....

Hey, thanks! May we quote you on this? [:D]

/Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library

@Peter Wayne said:

417 x $398 = $165,966

...

Well, for us poor guys it seems to be a lot of money. But I think VSL prefers to sell 417 copies for the original price... [:D]
They will , but not as quickly. And...Not to a certain group of buyers who otherwise wouldn`t have bought it in the 1st place. Group buys appeal to the "fence sitters"... Rich

@Peter Wayne said:

417 x $398 = $165,966

...

Well, for us poor guys it seems to be a lot of money. But I think VSL prefers to sell 417 copies for the original price... [:D]
They will , but not as quickly. And...Not to a certain group of buyers who otherwise wouldn`t have bought it in the 1st place. Group buys appeal to the "fence sitters"... Rich

Hey Rich, good to see another Torontian on the board. I also wish for a group buy but if it doesn't happen I'll figure out a way to add Opus 1 to my virtual orchestra (I already have SAM Horns and Solo Sessions, EWQLSO SIlver, GS 3.0 Orchestra, HALion Strings etc.). It was a very smart move of companies such as VSL and Project SAM to include demo patches on the Gigastudio 3 packages. That's how I ended up getting SAM Solo Sessions. Those damn sounds were just too good to pass up. But obviously they are a lot cheaper than Opus 1, hence I got them first.

However, stores like Long and McQuade and Saved by Technology offer these libraries and have different methods of payment. Saved... has a credit card although their interest rates absolutely suck. Long and McQuade ahs their own in-house financing which is 17% annually and the terms are such that you must pay the balance off within a year. That's not bad. I've put things on account then paid them off way early so as to avoid paying too much interest.

For Opus 1, I originally hoped to get it trading in my P90 but the store I went to didn't have it and I realised that I needed to upgrade GS3 Solo to GS3 Orchestra before getting Opus 1. And orchestra comes with a boatload of VSL sounds specially done for that platform so it was a good deal.

@dcoscina said:

[...] This library, above all else, has gotten the closest to emulating a real instrument. It's actually scary how good these sounds are....

Hey, thanks! May we quote you on this? [:D]

/Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library

Sure, no problem. Just give me a free copy of Opus 1. Or heck, I'll be a beta tester for your next library [[;)]]