Vienna Symphonic Library Forum
Forum Statistics

195,037 users have contributed to 42,958 threads and 258,112 posts.

In the past 24 hours, we have 12 new thread(s), 57 new post(s) and 61 new user(s).

  1. Home
  2. Orchestration & Composition
  3. Your Music
  4. Differing Approaches to Film Scoring.

  • Differing Approaches to Film Scoring.

    F
    F
    In another thread, someone commented that they NEVER read a script prior to scoring a movie. This struck me, as I LOVE to read scripts before starting projects. I feel it gives me a head start on familiarizing myself with the story and the characters.

    This lead to the idea of a discussion of how we APPROACH scoring to picture. Not the MECHANICS (the book-learning part), but the CREATIVE approach. In Michael Schelle's book 'The Score:Interviews With Film Composers', I was fascinated with how these A-list composers get started, keep going, and deal with the pressures and vagaries of this often thankless task.

    Well, we obviously have some VERY talented and experienced folks on this forum. I would find a similar discussion interesting and useful.

    Again, most of us know about spotting sessions and timecode and basic orchestration techniques. The question here is, what is going through your mind as you make your choices?

    Anyone care to get us started?

    Fred Story
    Concentrix Music and Sound Design
    www.concentrixmusic.com
  • A
    A
    Reading the script first, and the director tells you how the film starts...I ask first "how does it start?" And then he tells you that and I ask "what costume does the character have and so on..". Is he a bad ass is he good etc.
    And then I started playing on the keyboard after a theme... The character was driving a car and talking on the phone on arranging a meating with someone.... And I do not know why but I came up with a theme...

    Because I saw the scenes in my head and thought to myself: what about this and that? oh, it's a theme... I came up with the melody first...and worked with it for a while...and then I figured out the bass and that's when it starts to shape up...

    I don't have opus 1 yet but when I do you can hear the theme....

    How do you do it fred?

    Kind Regards
    AJ
  • W
    W
    That is a great topic, Fred. I wonder the same thing myself. Though not as an expert by any means, just a dabbler in film music. My main jobs have been tv commercials I disliked, some bland documentaries, and independent features that were total chaos so I don't have any system whatsoever. I just desperately attempt to get something done that may possibly work o.k.

    Though on a theoretical artistic level I disagree violently with that post about not reading scripts. Also, about stories not being important. The single most significant factor in the failure of 99% of the movies being made right now is the weakness of the script, original story and basic conception. You cannot make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

    In fact, I propose the exact opposite approach - creating a film score exactly like an opera to a libretto directly to a script, PRIOR to shooting. I'm working on something like that right now which is interesting as the music is integrated more basically into the film, prior to its visualization. In fact, it can influence that visualization and the two can work together.
  • E
    E
    Hi you guys,

    That was me who said that. It wasn't out of arrogance in case any of you thought that.

    I highly recommend that a film composer learn instead to score to only film. Reading the script can bring alot of baggage into the final scoring and posting process.

    Often the score will attempt something that the picture cannot do. This is the dreaded pitfall of the script. It can say an emotion that the film either cannot convey, or when you try to scor eit that way, will look either forced or convoluted.

    As a teacher, I HIGHLY recommend, if you are serious and wish to grow into bigger and better films, that you DO NOT read scripts. It is your choice if you tell them you read it, but I just flat out tell them that "scripts aren't what people watch, movies are."

    I prefer to one-up the politics game. instead of brown nosing and saying you'd love to see the script, I just cut through all that. They hired me they ought to get the real me.

    Surely, lot's of big film composers read scripts. But I can hear and see which ones do. And their films are not as well recieved. And then there's the often occasion where the film and the script are so shallow that there really isn't anythign that can be hurt by reading the script and carrying it's baggage.

    But I do recommend on a whole that you stay away from getting yourself into that trap.

    That's my way anyway.

    Evan Evans
  • F
    F
    Hmmm...that's an interesting point of view, Evan. And just to clarify, I really don't start the actual composing process from a script. That doesn't begin in earnest until I see my first cut. But I like reading a script for several reasons.

    For me, the more I know story...characters...subtext...tone, the better. It lets me start asking questions of the director right away about the concept of music for the film. What's the overall feel we're going for? Knowing these things...and knowing how the muses can feed ideas at just any time...I sometimes find myself knocking out quick little sketches based on a reaction to something. They may make it into the film...they may not. Like you say, the PICTURE determines that. But for me, the earlier I start, the better. Directors I've worked with seem to like this a lot. Occasionally I'll come up with an idea they hadn't considered, which for me lets me inject more of myself into the film musically. (God knows THAT's a constant challenge.) I'd say overall, I just feel more involved with the film from the get-go. It gets me THINKING about it.

    Now granted, all my work has been on small - and I emphasize SMALL - indies. And this method may be totally impractical on a large-budget studio feature. I've certainly done more than my share of last-minute-here's-the-cut-now-write-some-music stuff. But I sure like doing it the other way better.

    Fred Story
  • F
    F
    ...and I'm curious, Evan. On what do you base your statement that the scores of composers who read scripts aren't well received? I don't know enough to dispute that. But I'm curious if that's just your opinion, or if there's something tangible you base it on?

    Fred Story
  • E
    E
    Fred,

    I do have examples. Love that when people don't think I have a basis for what I say. I usually won't say anything if that's the case. I like to be right, so I make sure I back it up before I spit it out.

    Anyway, later tonight I will give you a list. For now, jumping to mind is a story about EnnioMorricone's score to "U-Turn". Perhaps you can do some web research on that score. And try to find out how much the film made and how well it did at the box office.

    Evan Evans
  • F
    F
    I didn't assume you DON'T have a basis...just asking if it's opinion or statistic. Like I said, I don't know enough about it to make an assumption.

    But the thing I just don't get is, how in the world can reading a script prior to scoring a film impede the process in any way? I must be totally ingnorant or dense on this. You make it sound like it's a really big deal, and something every film composer should know...but you're the first person I've ever heard express this view. (Not that I travel widely in Hollywood film-scoring circles, or anything.)

    Fred Story
  • D
    D
    Speaking of Morricone. Bud Smith (The Excorcist) one of the highest regarded film editors in the business told me that Morricone basically creates a bunch of cues (library) and then they're cut into the film. Many of the cues are basically extant and not done for a particular film.

    I learned this from Bud who described this to me after working with Morricone.

    Dave Connor
  • W
    W
    evanevans

    Let me explain something to you. You are not my teacher. You would never become my teacher. Do NOT place yourself in a position of supposed superiority over me. I don't take kindly to that.

    William Kersten
  • F
    F
    I'm wishing now I'd never used the script-reading thing as a jumping off point.

    But if I can share one anecdote.

    Several years ago I was asked to score a film by a director I'd never worked with.
    So of course, I was a little apprehensive. Even more so because it was a foreign film - in French. And I don't SPEAK French. I was given a bi-lingual script (every line appeared in French, then English.) In this case, of course, I was BOUND to the script. I told the director this wouldn't be a problem for me. (Not only did I not want to lose the gig, but I thought it would be an interesting challenge.)

    Anyway, the director scheduled two days to spot the film. He came to the studio and we began. For two days he never talked to me once about music. He broke down every scene. He gave me all the back stories...the subtext - down to who had slept with whom, and who WOULD sleep with whom. He explained where all the transitional moments were and why they were important. It was the first time a director had ever taken so much time not to explain what he wanted for music, but to explain his FILM.

    As we neared the end of the second day, he looked at his watch and said, "Well, I think you have everything you need."

    I panicked. He had not given me a single specific about where he wanted cues. I must have LOOKED panicked when I asked, "Uhhh...aren't we going to talk about where music goes?" He just smiled and said, "You know the movie now. You decide."

    Wow!

    Well, the first six cues went through some revisions as I learned more about his preferences...things like the way he likes to lead scenes with music, etc. But of the remaining 34 cues on the film, he made changes on ONE. (With a few little tweaks later when recording the musicians...but nothing major.)

    I've never had so much fun scoring a film in my life. The fact that he placed so much trust in me made me want to please him that much more.

    But I guess my whole point to this story is, I was able to ask more intelligent questions about his movie...because I'd read the script.

    I just finished my second film with this director, a Spanish-language film shot in Chile. We did quite a bit more traditional spotting on this one, but he remains one of my favorite directors to work with. And one thing remains the same. He sends me a script, and he expects me to read it.

    Fred Story
  • D
    D
    Here's a thought on the script reading issue. Since most working film composers must be locked up deal-wise well ahead of a film being shot, how do they decide interest without reading some draft of the script?

    The other question is: how many great scores that we're all familiar with did the composer read the script first? We must assume many if not most. I would be interested in seeing Evan's list if this is actually documented.

    btw I do not consider it a fantastic (unreal) notion that seeing a film with no prior knowledge would be not be ideal in some way. No doubt the script (as is very often true) may be miles and miles from the film's final feel.

    I sort of like it as a creative approach but I can't imagine that an expert film composer is unaware of final product vrs. original script phenomenom or would be significently hampered by reading the script in advance.

    Dave Connor
  • W
    W
    Dave

    Very interesting and it immediately made me think of Jean Cocteau.

    He had a good relationship with George Auric, the great composer of Beauty and the Beast (original) and Orpheus among many other powerful works. But he would not tell the composer what to do, and would not think twice about reversing the sequence and keeping the same cues. This could create chaos in people who were locked into one set approach, but was wonderful for creative geniuses like Cocteau and Auric.
  • D
    D
    Fred and William,

    I couldn't agree more with the directors approach in Freds story. That's been my expieriance pretty much in film except we would spot it together and then he would turn me loose. Great approach. I've also worked with guys that watch over every frame and even make dramatic changes in the music: very specific ones. That approach also worked but thank God it was only a 60 second PSA.

    Dave
  • W
    W
    Fred,

    A response to your interesting post - what you are describing is the ideal of a relationship between a producer/director and a composer. This is simply mutual respect for a professional, whatever he may be - actor, artist, composer. It is very rare in Hollywood, which judges everyone by how "hot" they are, not whether they are even remotely talented. That is the least of their concerns.
  • F
    F
    Well, here's another loaded question...pertaining to commercial music as well as film. It occured to me when I read William's comment about people wanting the current 'hot' thing.

    Six or seven years ago, everyone who brought in something 'cinematic' for me to reference pulled out Danny Elfman. In the past couple of years, I'm hearing lots of Thomas Newman. For commercials, I suppose I tend to be a little more forgiving of this. After all, it's an industry which exists to serve the current 'hot' thing.

    But how do you handle the dreaded 'temp music' phenomenon? The only film I've ever been fired from was partially because I was so uncomfortable getting my score to sound as much like the temp music as he obviously wanted. (After writing 40 minutes of music, with less than three minutes approved, I was actually relieved when he decided to make the change.)

    When you're not in Hollywood...when you're not on the 'A' list...it's hard to make demands. Livlihood? Artistic integrity? Livlihood? Artistic integrity?

    Anyone found the magic bullet solution?

    Fred Story
  • W
    W
    Fred,

    I've been in the same position, and it is very insulting - to have someone ask you for something somebody else does when you already do something yourself!

    All I can say is that you should uphold your own artistry - you will never regret that.
  • E
    E
    last edited
    last edited

    @William said:

    Let me explain something to you. You are not my teacher. You would never become my teacher. Do NOT place yourself in a position of supposed superiority over me. I don't take kindly to that.
    Never have I. Nor would I need to! You are awesome!

    Where did this comment come from?

    Evan Evans
  • E
    E
    last edited
    last edited

    @Fred Story said:

    But the thing I just don't get is, how in the world can reading a script prior to scoring a film impede the process in any way? I must be totally ingnorant or dense on this.
    No Fred. Not at all. This is a "master's" advice. Of course at first it makes sense to have the script. Of course it does. I relaly can't see any reason why not if you did not know otherwise. But a well oiled "film composing" machine can work a lot better when there is less in the way. I guess I didn't explain the seperation of literature and movies clearly enough.

    When you read a script, it has inherent emotions, especially those more easily communicated BY TELLING YOU. The film on the other hand has to do that with just image and music (there are a few other crafty tricks, not to mention NARRATION which is often considered a "cop-out"). What happens then is, the film must stand on it's own. It's an art thing really. It's about respecting the purity of the medium, Cinema. 9 out of 10 directors, maybe more, will agree with this. Unless of course if they wrote the screenplay as well, which is a recipe for disaster, for the exact same logical reasons why a script should not be considered as reference material for the post locked film environment.

    I am tired and having a hard time making sure I am answerring this correctly. Please tell me how I am being unclear. I like your questions, Fred. [:)] please.

    Evan Evans
  • E
    E
    last edited
    last edited

    @Fred Story said:

    For two days he never talked to me once about music. He broke down every scene....As we neared the end of the second day, he looked at his watch and said, "Well, I think you have everything you need."
    ...He just smiled and said, "You know the movie now. You decide."
    Fred, thanks for sharing that. This is one of those things that you can actually demand should you so choose. Danny Elfman, and others, including myself have it in the script, that the director is not allowed to give any direction "in terms of music". All dialogue I have with my directors is about intended audience impact. That's what it boils down to. And the closest we get to music is only in shape or in relation to the scope of the film. For instance, source music for radio or montage scenes. And/or how a cue might crossfade into a source cue, or taper in a specific way. Shapes and audience impact.

    Also an important point is that, if the Director is not the one who gives the final thumbs-up/thumbs-down, than it is the Composer or Music Supervisor. This is to prevent "committee" decisions, and decisions made by those who know less about the function of film music, or about the goal of the film. The exception is when the direector is too busy, or is merely a facilitor, a hired gun, in which the other choice would be the Producer.

    I usually start with a point or two on the table and negotiate giving it back for more creative control.

    But for instance the last film I scored, I got 5 gross points, complete creative control, asked to have a few scenes edited per my specs, and for some color correction. My current film, I am doing the graphical opening for the film in After Effects/Final Cut, color correction, have creative control, and am recieving 4 gross points. My next film I also have complete creative control and again, 5 points. But I do an excellent job of scoring (despite what you might think of my music which has nothing to do with film scoring as I've said before), and so director's put a HUGE amount of trust into me. And when I deliver on that trust it creates more jobs.

    So this is not a fantasy option of having so much control and having a beautiful relationship with the director. It is possible and happens all the time with many composers.

    Fred, try to ask for it the next time around. If you feel comfortable with it. There is nothing like it as you have said. Such freedom.

    [:)]

    Evan Evans