Dave

Very interesting and it immediately made me think of Jean Cocteau.

He had a good relationship with George Auric, the great composer of Beauty and the Beast (original) and Orpheus among many other powerful works. But he would not tell the composer what to do, and would not think twice about reversing the sequence and keeping the same cues. This could create chaos in people who were locked into one set approach, but was wonderful for creative geniuses like Cocteau and Auric.

Fred and William,

I couldn't agree more with the directors approach in Freds story. That's been my expieriance pretty much in film except we would spot it together and then he would turn me loose. Great approach. I've also worked with guys that watch over every frame and even make dramatic changes in the music: very specific ones. That approach also worked but thank God it was only a 60 second PSA.

Dave

Fred,

A response to your interesting post - what you are describing is the ideal of a relationship between a producer/director and a composer. This is simply mutual respect for a professional, whatever he may be - actor, artist, composer. It is very rare in Hollywood, which judges everyone by how "hot" they are, not whether they are even remotely talented. That is the least of their concerns.

Well, here's another loaded question...pertaining to commercial music as well as film. It occured to me when I read William's comment about people wanting the current 'hot' thing.

Six or seven years ago, everyone who brought in something 'cinematic' for me to reference pulled out Danny Elfman. In the past couple of years, I'm hearing lots of Thomas Newman. For commercials, I suppose I tend to be a little more forgiving of this. After all, it's an industry which exists to serve the current 'hot' thing.

But how do you handle the dreaded 'temp music' phenomenon? The only film I've ever been fired from was partially because I was so uncomfortable getting my score to sound as much like the temp music as he obviously wanted. (After writing 40 minutes of music, with less than three minutes approved, I was actually relieved when he decided to make the change.)

When you're not in Hollywood...when you're not on the 'A' list...it's hard to make demands. Livlihood? Artistic integrity? Livlihood? Artistic integrity?

Anyone found the magic bullet solution?

Fred Story

Fred,

I've been in the same position, and it is very insulting - to have someone ask you for something somebody else does when you already do something yourself!

All I can say is that you should uphold your own artistry - you will never regret that.

@William said:

Let me explain something to you. You are not my teacher. You would never become my teacher. Do NOT place yourself in a position of supposed superiority over me. I don't take kindly to that.

Never have I. Nor would I need to! You are awesome!

Where did this comment come from?

Evan Evans

@Fred Story said:

But the thing I just don't get is, how in the world can reading a script prior to scoring a film impede the process in any way? I must be totally ingnorant or dense on this.

No Fred. Not at all. This is a "master's" advice. Of course at first it makes sense to have the script. Of course it does. I relaly can't see any reason why not if you did not know otherwise. But a well oiled "film composing" machine can work a lot better when there is less in the way. I guess I didn't explain the seperation of literature and movies clearly enough.

When you read a script, it has inherent emotions, especially those more easily communicated BY TELLING YOU. The film on the other hand has to do that with just image and music (there are a few other crafty tricks, not to mention NARRATION which is often considered a "cop-out"). What happens then is, the film must stand on it's own. It's an art thing really. It's about respecting the purity of the medium, Cinema. 9 out of 10 directors, maybe more, will agree with this. Unless of course if they wrote the screenplay as well, which is a recipe for disaster, for the exact same logical reasons why a script should not be considered as reference material for the post locked film environment.

I am tired and having a hard time making sure I am answerring this correctly. Please tell me how I am being unclear. I like your questions, Fred. [:)] please.

Evan Evans

@Fred Story said:

For two days he never talked to me once about music. He broke down every scene....As we neared the end of the second day, he looked at his watch and said, "Well, I think you have everything you need."
...He just smiled and said, "You know the movie now. You decide."

Fred, thanks for sharing that. This is one of those things that you can actually demand should you so choose. Danny Elfman, and others, including myself have it in the script, that the director is not allowed to give any direction "in terms of music". All dialogue I have with my directors is about intended audience impact. That's what it boils down to. And the closest we get to music is only in shape or in relation to the scope of the film. For instance, source music for radio or montage scenes. And/or how a cue might crossfade into a source cue, or taper in a specific way. Shapes and audience impact.

Also an important point is that, if the Director is not the one who gives the final thumbs-up/thumbs-down, than it is the Composer or Music Supervisor. This is to prevent "committee" decisions, and decisions made by those who know less about the function of film music, or about the goal of the film. The exception is when the direector is too busy, or is merely a facilitor, a hired gun, in which the other choice would be the Producer.

I usually start with a point or two on the table and negotiate giving it back for more creative control.

But for instance the last film I scored, I got 5 gross points, complete creative control, asked to have a few scenes edited per my specs, and for some color correction. My current film, I am doing the graphical opening for the film in After Effects/Final Cut, color correction, have creative control, and am recieving 4 gross points. My next film I also have complete creative control and again, 5 points. But I do an excellent job of scoring (despite what you might think of my music which has nothing to do with film scoring as I've said before), and so director's put a HUGE amount of trust into me. And when I deliver on that trust it creates more jobs.

So this is not a fantasy option of having so much control and having a beautiful relationship with the director. It is possible and happens all the time with many composers.

Fred, try to ask for it the next time around. If you feel comfortable with it. There is nothing like it as you have said. Such freedom.

[:)]

Evan Evans

@Fred Story said:

But how do you handle the dreaded 'temp music' phenomenon?

When you're not in Hollywood...when you're not on the 'A' list...it's hard to make demands. Livelihood? Artistic integrity? Livelihood? Artistic integrity?

Awesome question. I have them make the editor send me a copy of the film with no music. This is SOOOO easy to do. You just ask, and a few days later you got it.

So then you say, I saw the film with temp music, and I see how you want it. I am going to go through it and see if there is a better way to get all those wonderful things you were trying to with "other film's music". I'd love to talk to you about the architecture and structure of the film as well as through lines of characters, and the ultimate "point" of the film. At that point I will do my own spotting, asking you for direction where needed, and then we can go over it, and over it, until it seems that I've got the film understood and becoming the best it can possibly be, and then some. If at any time you want me to look at the temp score I will, but I am sure I can get more meaning out of your film simply by taking your direction and using my own artistry and mastery of my craft.

That should tell them all they need to hear to say yes. They want to "direct" you. They know how to "direct". Tell them to "direct" you. Don't let the temp track do it. Make them do what they LIVE for. They love this stuff. Music is so much fun, and if they get involved with you so intimately on the project they have been working on in some cases for YEARS, they are going to respect you, and give you what you want to make the whole process work so perfectly they couldn't get anything but what they could dream of. Of course, a few of my directors have said, "Evan gave me a score that was better than anything I had dreamed." So that is the ultimate goal.

Evan Evans

@William said:

The single most significant factor in the failure of 99% of the movies being made right now is the weakness of the script, original story and basic conception. You cannot make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

Great to read that!!
I enjoy reading scripts, because there I see what the writer/director once imagined. Then you see on film what resulted out of it. That´s your starting point.
If you don´t know the difference between a script and a film, you´re wrong in the business. Of course filmmaking is about creating a film, not a novel. But the script is, where it all starts from. The idea that one should be able to hear if a composer has read the script before composing, sounds completely absurd to me. Sorry, Evan.

I´d liked to write more about it, but too less time right now. End of the week..

Bests,
- Mathis

evan,

thanks and my apologies for being touchy.

William,

Oh ok. No problem. For some reason a lot of people have "come down" on me as late, and I actually don't know why. I really love all people.

In another forum, I was discussing that VSL uses "time stretching". Actually I was merely voicing my personal disdain about it, and for some reason people actually "came down" on me. Not sure why. I never understood it. And they never explained.

Anyway, if there's ever a opportunity for you to tell me why I upset you, please do. I am a very open person. Completely open. However I make room for my individual artistry and sometimes people take that as my being pig headed, arrogant, or one sided, when really I am just talking about "me". I still acknowledge, respect, and cherish, all other wondrous things that exist in the universe, sometimes more at the subatomic level than the personal level! [:)]

Evan Evans

@mathis said:

I enjoy reading scripts, because there I see what the writer/director once imagined. Then you see on film what resulted out of it. That's your starting point.
If you don't know the difference between a script and a film, you're wrong in the business. Of course filmmaking is about creating a film, not a novel. But the script is, where it all starts from. The idea that one should be able to hear if a composer has read the script before composing, sounds completely absurd to me. Sorry, Evan.

mathis,

That's ok. I actually 100% agree with the two of you about 99% of the time the script being so important to whether a film gets made, and gets made well. And I still press that the composer ought to not read it before and during writing. It's ok to marvel at it when you're done with your score though. [:)]

I see it most people's way, I just have a small tiny little difference in that specifically the composer, who is the emotional narrator via an invisible abstract hidden underneath the film, should not attempt to parlay any meaning inherent in the script only. This becomes clouded once the script is read, and so the composer, as per my way, should not read the script.

It is maybe a cutting edge thought. One which encounters resistance. But I have never been ordinary, and my ways have always tried to be the best ways. Sometimes people say, "there is no best way". Some sort of defense mechanism protecting their ego from letting them know their "way" is wrong. But when it comes to film scoring, at least as I've broken it down, it is all explainable, interconnectable, and quantifiable. This is something I think is unique to me and it is the basis for my book on the subject. My gift has been to "see" the abstract of the art of film scoring, demystified and quantified mathematically, scientifically, and philosophically.

That said, I do not purport at this time to be definitive in what I say about NOT reading a script. Certainly there are exceptions. However, they are "known" to me, and it is possible, but I am reserving the complete description for my book, to explain all the varieties of one would encounter now and into the future. I would say that 95% of the time you are better off without having read the script, perhaps more like 96% or 97%. Although that seems like absolute certainty, consider that over 6000 films are made each year. This means 180 films per year "may" benefit by having the composer read the script.

And also let me say that, in my encounters and experiences, more than half of the scripts had nothing more to tell me than was inherent in the film already.

Evan Evans

[quote="evanevansI am reserving the complete description for my book [quote]




Be careful. Remember what happened the last time you mentioned your book.

@evanevans said:

, it is all explainable, interconnectable, and quantifiable. This is something I think is unique to me and it is the basis for my book on the subject. My gift has been to "see" the abstract of the art of film scoring, demystified and quantified mathematically, scientifically, and philosophically.

Wow, impressive! So that means there´s nothing more to explore for anybody else?
Should we others now stop to explore the everyday new discovery of the mythological world of audio-visual relationship?

I always thought though that it is about discovering it again and again from the ground up, since it never will stop to surprise you.
And concerning my wisdom: If you stop discovering things, you stop being creative.

I read somewhere (record jacket, maybe?) that EM's score for "The Good, The Bad and The Ugly" was written in its entirety for a different film which was never released. The music was simply "placed" into TGTBATU.
I knew the soundtrack for "Once Upon a Time in the West" for about 10 years before I saw the film. When I finally saw it I was completely blown away by the usage of the music in the film. Really "odd" choices that worked so brilliantly...

But my all-time favourite EM score is "Investigation of a Citizen Under Suspicion"
I still haven't seen the film, but the score is a model of economy and imagination.

That's interesting. I like Morricone a lot, and what you say reminds me of what I heard Jean Cocteau did with George Auric's music on Orpheus or Beauty and the Beast. He used cues that were written for one section in a completely different part of the film. If you've seen those films, it obviously worked brilliantly. Though he didn't do it on all of them!

Which reminds me of a form of cinematic vandalism that has been committed by an overrated and pretentious composer - Phillip Glass. (Has anyone heard that atrocity of an "opera" he wrote? Or the single worst film score I have ever heard - his screechy string quartet for the Lugosi Dracula that completely ignores the film from the first frame to the last?) This person had the gall to remove Auric's beautiful, elegant, magnificent score from Beauty and the Beast and put his own boring, droning crap to that film. This should be illegal, though the owners of the rights had the bad taste to permit it.

I like to see a script. It's one way to judge where the strengths and weaknesses of a story are. And you can do a lot to tie a movie together with music, so that can be useful information IMO.

But mostly I like to see a script because it gets me excited; it's something real about the project, probably there are no cuts to see yet, and it starts a conscious and subconscious process of thought...maybe I'll have an idea for a theme, a rhythm, instrumentation, sounds...soemtimes these get abandoned; but getting started is the key for me.

However, talking with the director is probably even more useful, whether you read a script or not.

Interesting what you say about Morricone's methods, ee. I can well believe that, because his music is not really about hitting cue points....more about themes which establish a strong mood. Oh man, what a mood...that guy is a master of melody. His recent 3-CD release is lovely, various reworkings of themes with just piano, just chamber, and orchestra performances.
And the title !!: " I, Morricone".
[H]

Nigel


Nigel.

But actually, evan, I read your post again, and you're right: it's much better to get your response (which will become your music) from the film/picture itself. If it's available.

Staying away from the temp track makes sense too for the very same reason. I admire your courage in insisting on that.

Nigel

I agree - as usual in a contradictory way - with both Nigel and Evan on this. The script can be a source of pure, undiluted ideas that a composer may actually use to influence the final film version. As in (the most famous example) Herrmann actually changing THE MIND OF HITCHCOCK- does anyone realize what an achievement that is from a composer? Hitchcock is the greatest cinematic mind along with Fellini, Bergman and Tarkovsky who ever lived, and Herrmann actually changed his mind about how to score things. No one else could do that.

However, Evan is absolutely right about the film being a "text" in itself and it may be completely different from any prior conception. This happens all the time. So you have this as a potential dilemma that can only be resolved in a practical way. And that is never easy.