Dietz,

It looks like my observations turned out to NOT be out of pure ignorance. As always.

And Herb,

Thank you for your response. Don't worry, like I said I still feel I got what I payed for. But it was and is a little startling when you think you have in your hands performances of 2s,4s,6s dynamics when that's not true. many times your employees and yourself seem to find any negative comment about your library as "dumping". Most other companies would take them as recommendations on future policy and public opinion. But time and again we get a kind of elistist response from you guys when someone says something sucks or something's wrong.

In all honesty your library ain't flawless. And I would hope in the future you would welcome all the reactions from all your customers.

If any customer's reaction isn't easily overturned by VSL than I'd say there's a reason to listen and not to fight. Here you have validated the customers concern. This is reason for apology not for telling the customer that they are out of line. Although seemingly outlandish, my thoughts and reactions to this library are bleeding edge. Others share my viewpoints or will sometime soon. These concerns I seemingly quibble about are goin got become all that users care about in the future.

My apologies for casting any bad news, but it's based on the merits and public opinion.

Evan Evans

I just talked to a friend of mine who is a very high up actively working film composer in Hollywood. I asked, "What do you think about that VSL uses time stretching to create their 2s and 6s dynamics from their 4s dynamics?" I was very straightforward without any emotion in my voice so as to get an unbiased response.

Well, he nearly flipped off the handle. He said that is a complete misrepresentation and other users should likely feel that's not fair. I also left out some colorful words he said.

So that's 2 out of 2 in my camp (myself and him). But I'm sure my colleagues would take this the same as I do.

I really don't need to feel vindicated here though. I trust my own opinions well enough. But so far if a poll were to be taken my guess is that this, although a small nearly inconsequential issue, reflects poorly on the representations and merits of the library.

But in VSL's defense, I LOVE the library, and we are only talking about perhaps 1% of the library here ... right? [[:|]]

Evan Evans

I don't care about that time-stretching, we only discovered that "superchérie" now and we didn't noticed it before , so ... should we care?

@evanevans said:

[...] are exactly 33% bigger than they need to be. [...] that we pay for around 40% of stuff that is nothing new , duplicative, and a waste of space. [...] and we are only talking about perhaps 1% of the library here [...] Evan Evans

Now what? 33%? 40% Or 1%? You can't distinguish between a "kind of elistist response" and a completely stunned reaction to some incoherent allegations in a company-owned forum which has proven many, many times to be very open to critics, and even praise for seemingly competing products. Although you're as powerful as 50 users (or was it 60?), you destroy the vibe _and_ the sense of this board for several hundreds (or thousands) of others. /Dietz

to add an interesting point to the discussion, i took the liberty to layer the two graphs of the left channel
http://www.vsl.co.at/upload/forum/Timestretch_Evidence.gif">
so what does that say to you [;)]
christian

I would imagine that getting the original sampled performers to play the exact same way for similar articulation samples would be near impossible. I imagine that getting each tone sample to match the rest is a feat on its own. The consistency which allows these samples to appear to us as "instruments" seems to me to be a great effort. That is what we paid for.

What draws us to this product is it potential for realism in the sound of the final audio. Personally, I don't care *how* they achieve it. If a competitor of VSL figures out how to do it better -- maybe without timestretched samples -- guess they will be able to charge more. God bless them!

I think what we have here is a matter of marketing seeming a touch ahead of technology. VSL brags about the samples, the silent stage, the "real" elements used, while saying little about the special tricks and audio blending involved. Marketing-wise, this makes sense for this kind of product. We want realism and would be jarred by seeing "timestretching" in the marketing.

But, heck, we *know* that the samplers we play these samples through use crossfades and envelopes and all manner of "synthetic" elements to make this all blend. And these forums are riddled with the digital advice of how to make things sound more realistic -- reverb settings, new instrument programming, etc. Basically: whatever works to achieve the end result.

Herb & co. : You used a synthetic method to achieve a certain result. This is not in your marketing anywhere. But -- oh wait -- these are samples, playing through samplers... on computers, no less!

And darn it, it works!

For my money, I am happy.

When you -- or someone else -- figure a way to make it better, you will get more money from me. [:)]

It's interesting that some of the issues here are reflected in a post of mine almost two weeks ago:

Originally posted by herb
Just want to say, that there is really no problem if you like to discuss Eric Persings Spectrasonics products here. I'm a big fan of Eric, I'll try to invite, maybe he gives some exclusive feedback regarding his products here. Sorry for the disruption, best Herb
------------------------------------------------------------------------



No disruption at all Herb.

BTW I just did an ambient/orchestral cue (demo) using VSL (stac/pfp/cresc) mostly in strings and brass with Absynth and Stylus and it really came out well. The combination of wonderful performances of pfp and cresc instruments along with such great sound quality really allow the composer to make musical statements that were once reserved for live orchestra only. The stac instruments are remarkably versatile for both aggressive scale passages and hits (the brass Stac are great!)

The pfp I referred to were 2, 4 and 6 sec's.

Dave Connor

Herb, Dietz & company,

Ditto here. I personally don't care if you only recorded one articualtion of each instrument for the entire library and still achieved the product you have created. Everything you've included in the library is useful, regardless of the means.

And I really don't care about being polite to this idiot anymore. No emoticons/smiley faces. No BS:

Please just kick Evan Evans off of this user forum already. Opinions are fine to express, but he's in a constant state of combat, abusing you and your public forum. I find him a true annoyance, extremely disruptive to anything that would normally be beneficial about forums and debate, and possibly turning potential business away for you.

And I reiterate to Evan Evans, for real, get a life.

Dear forum-members -

please let's keep ourselves in check. Don't let us get roped in with verbal injuries.

Finally, I should better have sticked to our doctrine: Don't feed the trolls! ;-] How fatuous to think that a direct and clear statement could change minds like theirs for the better.

****

... back to our normally scheduled program, Ladies & Gentlemen!

Peace,

/Dietz

@Carlos D said:

Herb & co. : You used a synthetic method to achieve a certain result. This is not in your marketing anywhere.

Carlos. You said it. That's all I am really getting at. And that it surprised me for those reasons you quote here above.

Herb & Co,
Wanted also to say that I have no hard feelings, and if you wish me to censor myself I will. That is a decision up to you. I will continue to be me, but maybe not entirely here.

It seems a lot of you are railing me for this. Don't understand why. maybe because you don't care or something. Well thanks for keeping it all into global perspective. Still I would have thought I had sampled performances at every duration as the marketing litereature touted. Nothing anyone says can take that away from me (and likely many users).

it might not be worth much but there it is. One more topic out of the 800 or so I've posted. i don't put much weight on it. But there it is.

ok?

[*-)]

Evan Evans

@Another User said:

Although you're as powerful as 50 users (or was it 60?), you destroy the vibe _and_ the sense of this board for several hundreds (or thousands) of others.

oh I don't think so. I've seen much worse. And to be honest VSL is the one who did this not me. I just talked about it and how it made me feel as a consumer/customer.

It's still a bright and shiny inspiring day over here!

[:)]

Evan Evans

Well... seems you have misread what Dietz says, if you think it only concerns this post, or only what you say...

@Iwan Roth said:

Do not say everything you know, because you may look like a fool...... [[;)]]

Iwan, that's what makes me who I am. I am not hiding like most people. I have flaws. I am smart and dumb, strong and weak, private and public, humble and selfish. But what I want to be remembered most for is that I was OPEN and shared all my life with everyone.

[:)]

Evan Evans

@evanevans said:

[...] Still I would have thought I had sampled performances at every duration as the marketing litereature touted.[...] Evan Evans

You just don't get it, do you? Go back to Herb's message and read again. And yes - censoring your own messages from now on could refrain me from doing so.

/Dietz

To Evan:

At some stage in your life, you'll learn that you don't have to answer EVERYTHING and always have the last word. The net result of doing so is that you simply piss people off even further.

To Herb and VSL:
You have created a remarkable library which never ceases to amaze me. Your interaction with customers is exceptional.

I remember when the first edition just came out, I expressed my disappointment at the absence of looped samples. There was an initial reluctance at this suggestion, the attitude being that players were not naturally "looped", but after some good discussion, the concensus prevailed that because we are not using live players, we are using samplers, we could drop the attention to reality and move towards a product that even "transcends" reality.

Now, in the Pro Edition, we have many looped samples and I sincerely thank VSL for that. (I could use even more......)

We are living in the 21st century where vocals are pitch-corrected, orchestras are sampled and.........notes are timestretched.

Great!! Let the progress continue!

Regards - Colin

originally posted by herb:
.....we were able to offer 100% length optimized samples.

...and this is the gist which nobody seems to be aware in the meantime. the samples are _OPTIMIZED_ to an equal length inside a certain patch, nothing else. we actually recorded 2, 4 and 6 sec pfp samples with and without vibrato. i can testify this fact, because i directed the recordings.
insinuating we are faking samples is 1. untrue and 2. devaluating the tremendous effort of our musicians.
it's a kinky situation: on one hand everybody's longing for samples which sounds real played, that means they are imperfect, like humans. on the other hand the enormous skill and work of our editors make this stuff playable on a keyboard, that means they need to effect a compromise in certain cases. if you like to find _something_, you'll find it.

perpetual nagging is such a nice sport, but very useless.

Michael Hula

@michi said:

We actually recorded 2, 4 and 6 sec pfp samples with and without vibrato. i can testify this fact, because i directed the recordings.
insinuating we are faking samples is 1. untrue and 2. devaluating the tremendous effort of our musicians.

No one is insinuating that. No one said that. Please don't put any of those words in my mouth that's for certain.

Now, thank you for letting us all know that you did actually record 2,4,6 NV, and V samples. If you had said that in the beginning I think many people wouldn't be all over me about this.

Having had everyone digest this truth, I am not sure the word "faking" is of teh best use here, but if that's the word you want to use, than you are wrong. You guys DID fake samples. But it was apparently a good decision. One made wisely.

I really don't know why everyone is getting on my case about this.

1. You guys "faked" (your words) samples.
2. I show this here.
3. The cat is out of the bag.
4. Truth demystified.
5. Only people hurt now is VSL ... the customer at least has peace of mind of not being surprised by this
6. I love VSL
7. I support VSL
8. I defend VSL adamantly (there are at least 5 sales I know of directly related to my marketing of the library to BIG people in Hollywood)
9. I use VSL everyday
10. I think Herb is great
11. The VSL team seems to be annoyed by me which is common fodder for a rebel (someone on the bleeding edge with outlandish ideas one day to become the norm!)
12. And finally dudes, THIS AIN'T MY TOPIC! lol [:D] Amazing how this became about me. Does anyone else have a life? Or is this Evan Evans is wrong and should be persecuted day? Why is everyone in denial here? All I am saying are truths. Seems most people missed the neutral stance I have on this finding. I am just a vessel with a head on my shoulders.
13. I won't hesitate next time to bring anything to anyone's attention, good or bad, or interesting or not.

And I hope MICHI that you aren't insinuating that I am perpetually nagging. If so you have misinterpreted me. If anything I am being perpetually railed upon. It really doesn't take much to say something (something true I might add), but I think it does take alot to have 15 people group together in common thought and rail on someone out of some kind of repressed denial.

But again, whatever. Must I say it again? I still love the library.

And most importantly, THIS AIN'T MY TOPIC.

Thanks all. On to the next interesting subject please. i think we got all teh answers we needed here.

[[:)]]

Evan Evans

P.S. The smiley faces are really how I feel. They are emoticons. Should I be sad to be alive? Ungrateful? I feel great. i am happy, content, and confident. And by the way, I write some pretty damn good music, get lot's of jobs, have a wonderful family, live in a beautiful place, own my own home, listen to the finest music, eat the greatest foods, and USE THE BEST DARN SAMPLED ORCHESTRA LIBRARY in the world!!! The VSL!!! Is there anything wrong with being happy under my conditions? [[:)]]

@JMMusic said:

Please just kick Evan Evans off of this user forum already.

What IS going on here?

I would have thought that by now we all know what Evan is like and would have surely gotten used to his mood swings. He's made nearly 800 posts to this forum: some of them ludicrous and some of them extremely interesting and articulate. He knows if he goes too far, he's going to get a kicking.

Surely, the sort of people that buy an extremely complicated product like VSL, for example, are mostly fairly intelligent I would have thought. They can surely work out for themselves what's important and what's not when it comes to samples. Who cares? Really? If it works, it works. Samples aren't real anyway.

This thread isn't going to change anyones mind about buying VSL or any other library. I would say from a 'company' point of view though Evan, Cool It in the nicest possible way.

Regarding the original quote about removing people from forums; that way leads to madness and then pretty soon you have anarchy. Anyone makes another suggestion like that, as far as I'm concerned will become my new official hobby, until I get kicked off.

Best regards

paul, i'd like to second that.
also i for myself do agree to differ on a series of evan's statements but i would not make removing a user from the VSL forum a topic unless there are severe legal issues forcing us to do so.
ourdays the right of free speech is not obvious any more and will not support intentions to introduce restrictions here, especially regarding censorship or banning.
although this doesn't mean some post could be more well-balanced imho
christian

[quote=cm]paul, i'd like to second that.

Thank you very much Christian.

I don't like talking about members in the third person but Evan is probably as mad as a hatter sometimes, but I wouldn't want to be without him here. [:D]

He can be quite humerous sometimes.

[I] Besides, its easier to control a thing when you can see it.

Best regards

Paul