Phew, that feels better now :-]

/Dietz

Makes me feel better aswell.. thanks [:D]

@Another User said:

Therefore we are searching and developing in this direction. Part of this developement was an assignement with Peter Neubäcker (Melodyne) to develop a dedicated VSL Melodyne version.
If I remember right, there was more than 1 year developent time for the final algorythm and all the engine features.

Wow, this is the first I've heard of this, and I would say a very exciting potential development. I've thought for a year now that a marraige of VSL and Melodyne, if reasonably easy to use, would be the way to go. It'll do wonders for the dynamic samples in particular as well as allowing short notes that are just the right length. Very nice.

@Christian Marcussen said:

Makes me feel better aswell.. thanks [:D]

Same here - keep up the good work and spirit, guys.

Peter
(happy new Opus 1 owner [:)] )

[:D]

YEAH....

Do not say everything you know, because you may look like a fool...... [[;)]]


Iwan

Dietz,

It looks like my observations turned out to NOT be out of pure ignorance. As always.

And Herb,

Thank you for your response. Don't worry, like I said I still feel I got what I payed for. But it was and is a little startling when you think you have in your hands performances of 2s,4s,6s dynamics when that's not true. many times your employees and yourself seem to find any negative comment about your library as "dumping". Most other companies would take them as recommendations on future policy and public opinion. But time and again we get a kind of elistist response from you guys when someone says something sucks or something's wrong.

In all honesty your library ain't flawless. And I would hope in the future you would welcome all the reactions from all your customers.

If any customer's reaction isn't easily overturned by VSL than I'd say there's a reason to listen and not to fight. Here you have validated the customers concern. This is reason for apology not for telling the customer that they are out of line. Although seemingly outlandish, my thoughts and reactions to this library are bleeding edge. Others share my viewpoints or will sometime soon. These concerns I seemingly quibble about are goin got become all that users care about in the future.

My apologies for casting any bad news, but it's based on the merits and public opinion.

Evan Evans

I just talked to a friend of mine who is a very high up actively working film composer in Hollywood. I asked, "What do you think about that VSL uses time stretching to create their 2s and 6s dynamics from their 4s dynamics?" I was very straightforward without any emotion in my voice so as to get an unbiased response.

Well, he nearly flipped off the handle. He said that is a complete misrepresentation and other users should likely feel that's not fair. I also left out some colorful words he said.

So that's 2 out of 2 in my camp (myself and him). But I'm sure my colleagues would take this the same as I do.

I really don't need to feel vindicated here though. I trust my own opinions well enough. But so far if a poll were to be taken my guess is that this, although a small nearly inconsequential issue, reflects poorly on the representations and merits of the library.

But in VSL's defense, I LOVE the library, and we are only talking about perhaps 1% of the library here ... right? [[:|]]

Evan Evans

I don't care about that time-stretching, we only discovered that "superchérie" now and we didn't noticed it before , so ... should we care?

@evanevans said:

[...] are exactly 33% bigger than they need to be. [...] that we pay for around 40% of stuff that is nothing new , duplicative, and a waste of space. [...] and we are only talking about perhaps 1% of the library here [...] Evan Evans

Now what? 33%? 40% Or 1%? You can't distinguish between a "kind of elistist response" and a completely stunned reaction to some incoherent allegations in a company-owned forum which has proven many, many times to be very open to critics, and even praise for seemingly competing products. Although you're as powerful as 50 users (or was it 60?), you destroy the vibe _and_ the sense of this board for several hundreds (or thousands) of others. /Dietz

to add an interesting point to the discussion, i took the liberty to layer the two graphs of the left channel
http://www.vsl.co.at/upload/forum/Timestretch_Evidence.gif">
so what does that say to you [;)]
christian

I would imagine that getting the original sampled performers to play the exact same way for similar articulation samples would be near impossible. I imagine that getting each tone sample to match the rest is a feat on its own. The consistency which allows these samples to appear to us as "instruments" seems to me to be a great effort. That is what we paid for.

What draws us to this product is it potential for realism in the sound of the final audio. Personally, I don't care *how* they achieve it. If a competitor of VSL figures out how to do it better -- maybe without timestretched samples -- guess they will be able to charge more. God bless them!

I think what we have here is a matter of marketing seeming a touch ahead of technology. VSL brags about the samples, the silent stage, the "real" elements used, while saying little about the special tricks and audio blending involved. Marketing-wise, this makes sense for this kind of product. We want realism and would be jarred by seeing "timestretching" in the marketing.

But, heck, we *know* that the samplers we play these samples through use crossfades and envelopes and all manner of "synthetic" elements to make this all blend. And these forums are riddled with the digital advice of how to make things sound more realistic -- reverb settings, new instrument programming, etc. Basically: whatever works to achieve the end result.

Herb & co. : You used a synthetic method to achieve a certain result. This is not in your marketing anywhere. But -- oh wait -- these are samples, playing through samplers... on computers, no less!

And darn it, it works!

For my money, I am happy.

When you -- or someone else -- figure a way to make it better, you will get more money from me. [:)]

It's interesting that some of the issues here are reflected in a post of mine almost two weeks ago:

Originally posted by herb
Just want to say, that there is really no problem if you like to discuss Eric Persings Spectrasonics products here. I'm a big fan of Eric, I'll try to invite, maybe he gives some exclusive feedback regarding his products here. Sorry for the disruption, best Herb
------------------------------------------------------------------------



No disruption at all Herb.

BTW I just did an ambient/orchestral cue (demo) using VSL (stac/pfp/cresc) mostly in strings and brass with Absynth and Stylus and it really came out well. The combination of wonderful performances of pfp and cresc instruments along with such great sound quality really allow the composer to make musical statements that were once reserved for live orchestra only. The stac instruments are remarkably versatile for both aggressive scale passages and hits (the brass Stac are great!)

The pfp I referred to were 2, 4 and 6 sec's.

Dave Connor

Herb, Dietz & company,

Ditto here. I personally don't care if you only recorded one articualtion of each instrument for the entire library and still achieved the product you have created. Everything you've included in the library is useful, regardless of the means.

And I really don't care about being polite to this idiot anymore. No emoticons/smiley faces. No BS:

Please just kick Evan Evans off of this user forum already. Opinions are fine to express, but he's in a constant state of combat, abusing you and your public forum. I find him a true annoyance, extremely disruptive to anything that would normally be beneficial about forums and debate, and possibly turning potential business away for you.

And I reiterate to Evan Evans, for real, get a life.

Dear forum-members -

please let's keep ourselves in check. Don't let us get roped in with verbal injuries.

Finally, I should better have sticked to our doctrine: Don't feed the trolls! ;-] How fatuous to think that a direct and clear statement could change minds like theirs for the better.

****

... back to our normally scheduled program, Ladies & Gentlemen!

Peace,

/Dietz

@Carlos D said:

Herb & co. : You used a synthetic method to achieve a certain result. This is not in your marketing anywhere.

Carlos. You said it. That's all I am really getting at. And that it surprised me for those reasons you quote here above.

Herb & Co,
Wanted also to say that I have no hard feelings, and if you wish me to censor myself I will. That is a decision up to you. I will continue to be me, but maybe not entirely here.

It seems a lot of you are railing me for this. Don't understand why. maybe because you don't care or something. Well thanks for keeping it all into global perspective. Still I would have thought I had sampled performances at every duration as the marketing litereature touted. Nothing anyone says can take that away from me (and likely many users).

it might not be worth much but there it is. One more topic out of the 800 or so I've posted. i don't put much weight on it. But there it is.

ok?

[*-)]

Evan Evans

@Another User said:

Although you're as powerful as 50 users (or was it 60?), you destroy the vibe _and_ the sense of this board for several hundreds (or thousands) of others.

oh I don't think so. I've seen much worse. And to be honest VSL is the one who did this not me. I just talked about it and how it made me feel as a consumer/customer.

It's still a bright and shiny inspiring day over here!

[:)]

Evan Evans

Well... seems you have misread what Dietz says, if you think it only concerns this post, or only what you say...

@Iwan Roth said:

Do not say everything you know, because you may look like a fool...... [[;)]]

Iwan, that's what makes me who I am. I am not hiding like most people. I have flaws. I am smart and dumb, strong and weak, private and public, humble and selfish. But what I want to be remembered most for is that I was OPEN and shared all my life with everyone.

[:)]

Evan Evans

@evanevans said:

[...] Still I would have thought I had sampled performances at every duration as the marketing litereature touted.[...] Evan Evans

You just don't get it, do you? Go back to Herb's message and read again. And yes - censoring your own messages from now on could refrain me from doing so.

/Dietz

To Evan:

At some stage in your life, you'll learn that you don't have to answer EVERYTHING and always have the last word. The net result of doing so is that you simply piss people off even further.

To Herb and VSL:
You have created a remarkable library which never ceases to amaze me. Your interaction with customers is exceptional.

I remember when the first edition just came out, I expressed my disappointment at the absence of looped samples. There was an initial reluctance at this suggestion, the attitude being that players were not naturally "looped", but after some good discussion, the concensus prevailed that because we are not using live players, we are using samplers, we could drop the attention to reality and move towards a product that even "transcends" reality.

Now, in the Pro Edition, we have many looped samples and I sincerely thank VSL for that. (I could use even more......)

We are living in the 21st century where vocals are pitch-corrected, orchestras are sampled and.........notes are timestretched.

Great!! Let the progress continue!

Regards - Colin