Thanks to you all for the feedback. I really appreciate it. It all seems encouraging which is good. Interestingly no real negatives.

One other question:

I still use Protools as a front end using DTDM (ESB). Are there any really nasty conflicts with VI on ESB instrument tracks? One problem I had with EW choir was that their much vaunted 'word builder' feature needed multiple midi channels which simply never worked on my set up.

Jack: I think it is a bit of a shame that the samples are encoded as metadata because one way I have found useful and quick to work is this - I want to search a particular cymbal hit (for example) to insert in a recording. I simply go to the import audio page and audition the samples directly. There are a massive number of samples that I would never have found searching through presets. Having auditioned ones I like I then simply import them as audio files into my arrangement. Voila! I would have liked to still have this option but in 24 bit.

JWL and Ploughman :You both make the point that EXS library is by no means reduntant. Im fairly sure I'll be using a combination of VI and EXS which in turn, makes me wonder whether I may be best off initially, spending my hard earned cash on the new samples (Power Trumpets/Appassionata etc) rather than doubling up the ones that I already have. Probably I should replace some of the Pro Edition instruments that are really going to sound noticeably better in 24 bit initially and where the VI performance is really going to notice. Any ones particularly stand out as sounding dramatically better? Maybe the Brass and Strings?
Looking at the 'Discount Calculator' It appears there would be little financial incentive to buy the entire Cube rather than individual VI's. Anyway I have already bought the Orchestral Strings 1 so maybe I have inadvertantly lost that opportunity.

Julian and mpower88: I take your points about the VI window. Maybe I have an old version but whenever I open VI get a white pop-up window saying: "Vienna Instruments AudioUnit-Server Interface...Show Window" which strikes me as a mildly annoying bug.

I guess everything is bound to sound better in 24 bit...

Right..I obviously need to spend some time watching the videos etc. Thanks for the encouragement. I guess that's what I need. I'll keep an eye here for further comments.

Patrick: yes re the window this is correct that is how it displays. however VSl have covered this issue in another thread - there was no other way to get the window to open directly from the instrument track since it is in fact another app that you are running which runs off the VSL server, this is really a limitation of VST / AU instrument interface and not a fault of not trying on part of the VSL team - at least that is my understanding of it from what I remember reading. In other words, we can expect this feature to probably be fixed as soon as it is technically possible.

But like I said, when you weigh up the time savers against this issue, it's a non-issue.

If you want to open EXS, it's two clicks, versus 3 with VI, but in Cubase, (where you don't need EXS anymore anyway - so Cubase is again a viable option) it's only two - one to open that pop up window and two to open the VI editor, so, no different than with VI. Cubase also has the added benefit of "unloading" samples when you freeze a track, which I find reallly useful, it means you can load a lot more instruments. In Logic freezing doesn't unload RAM and so you still have a ceiling, I would imagine, in Cubase the ceiling is only limited by tracks and general host issues but not the VSL itself (providing you only unfreeze a certain amount of tracks at a given time - which is quite workable).

Miklos.

For me, it depends on what I'm doing -- what the project is, and what the instrument is. For the most part, I absolutely prefer the VIs to the old EXS approach -- so much more flexible. No comparison, really. However, I do have EXS versions of many instruments still, and use them quite regularly. If I had the Cube, and the horsepower to run it, I doubt I'd ever launch an EXS instance, though.

2 cents only.

J.

Unless you are a man of infinite resources, I would consider the use of both EXS and VI inevitable as you transistion.

24 bit improves everything. All VI's sound better. But, in the spirit of your question, I've noticed that the brass in particular gain a depth and smoothness. When I heard the VI Brass I, I noticed that I could again use the trombone in that "horn-like" round tone for pp to mp harmonic material in the C3 to (middle) C4 range.

In fact, before answering this question, I returned to compare, and I realized that I had actually removed the VSL EXS solo brass from my hard drive. I came to consider it so inferior to VI, I decided it wasn't worth the space.

Miklos is right about the repetition modes. I'd forgotten how bad they were (mainly because I never used them). All of my short notes in EXS have been round-robin-ed, but that still limits the EXS user to only a pair of alternating samples. So instead of one machine gun, it sounds like two. VI's usually alternate with no fewer than four variations.

Another thought: do you use a lot of slow to fast legato lines? The cross from slow to fast legato in VI using the speed control is just wonderful, and nothing close to it exists in EXS.

The only value in EXS in regards to performance is the fact that when the VI aka the VSL server is full on memory, you can start loading up EXS, which uses Logic's memory address, so in effect you can load more samples into EXS where your VI is full (or visa versa for that matter). However, I've never had to do this, and at the end of the day yes, it's a pretty good workaround in terms of really getting the most out of your machine - but my machine's CPU isn't fast enough to run all the optimised and freezed tracks that VI can deliver ALONE let alone thinking about starting up EXS. I always max out the cpu before the RAM this is a dual 2.0ghz G5, and I'm talking about 40 stereo 32bit freeze tracks of VI and a couple of altiverbs at low buffer settings. Leopard is coming in the next few months, so we are told, and that will be fully 64 bit. Give it 6 months to transition, by Christmas time, I'd say this memory ceiling thing will be history and we will be able to load 16Gigs of optimised (and that means 200+ tracks) of VI into a Mac Pro 8 core machine. It's not as far away as it sounds. In the mean time, only a Quad G5 or Mac Pro will max out the RAM using just VI, as it is just so efficient (if you take the time to optimise).

A quick tip by the way maybe everybody already knows this, but in logic if you want to optimise in VI, just click "Learn", then freeze the track, - the learn mode still works! - unfreeze the track, click "optimise" and you're done. Much quicker than waiting for the VI to "learn" in realtime. Never failed for me. An example - a 80 Mb string legato patch will be reduced to 2mb of RAM usage! However it is worth noting that each instance does use some RAM just for being there so you still should work to keep your instances down by using keyswitching to change patches of the same instrument rather than opening new instances for new patches of the same instrument (where possible). But all of this combined means you can load a vastly larger orchestration than you EVER could with EXS (unless you printed to audio, and unloaded the instrument - which you don't need to do with VI).

Miklos.

@Patrick Wilson said:

Julian and mpower88: I take your points about the VI window. Maybe I have an old version but whenever I open VI get a white pop-up window saying: "Vienna Instruments AudioUnit-Server Interface...Show Window" which strikes me as a mildly annoying bug.

Hi Patrick,

I respect of the operation of the VI interface within Logic:

The main issue I find is not that it takes 3 clicks to open the plug-in it is more that when the VI window is fronted Logic becomes a background app. The most infuriating issue is for example you make an edit in the plug-in window then to listen you want to run the transport in Logic (i.e. start playback) so you hit your key command for play... and nothing happens... then you remember you have to switch back into Logic.

If you are working exclusively with VI it becomes more of an automatic process but where you are using a number of plug-ins that work within Logic one way the VI interface can catch you out.

This anomaly excepted, the VI intefrace offers some fantastic opportunties to aid sampling composition and design.

One thing to perhaps consider if you archive your projects and need access to them at a later date on perhaps a future operating system (Leopard or 64 bit) may be to save your VI instances. Logic will save your current data within the plug-ins as part of the song but with operating system changes this could be un-predictable for external plug-ins when OS's change. For example there was a problem with Spectrasonics Atmosphere Plug-in when it transferred from VST (in Mac OS9) to an AU in (OSX) Logic had saved the plug-in details for the Atmosphere VST in OS9 but once the OS changed this plug was no longer avalable! There was eventually a work round but worth taking note of.

Julian

Julian makes valid points: I point out though that the interface issue is a technical limitation of the host not VI, that said, it can indeed be a bit frustrating but still, your original question was in regards to a comparison of EXS and VI and in that, there remains NO comparison (in my opinion), the fact is these *two* issues aside, the amount of time it saves you and the grace with which it does do it's appointed tasks, and the improvement in sound quality, and the fact you save time and can load a lot more articulations than you ever could with EXS all add up to make those two interface issues non issues, for me at least. It's easy enough to realise that logic is a background app after a few times. VI is in fact it's own app separate from Logic, and they had to do that to get it to run the way they needed it to. Future releases will no doubt see and end to this limitation (of course we hope so). However, if you use Expose, the mac osx window organising system it's easy enough to put your mouse in the top left corner or press F9 to jump back to the VI window you just had open if you switched back to Logic. You CAN also play parts from within the VI window, that does work, you just cannot hit "play" because you are technically not in Logic. You simply click the Logic window behind, hit space bar. Providing you don't open another VI window the one you were just working in goes into the background and can be access via expose's f9 key. It's a minor annoyance, not the fault of VSL, that really doesn't count as a negative in comparison to the major and significant improvements VI has over EXS, once again IMO.

Miklos.

@mpower88 said:

However, if you use Expose, the mac osx window organising system it's easy enough to put your mouse in the top left corner or press F9 to jump back to the VI window you just had open if you switched back to Logic.
Miklos.

Hi Miklos,

When I am working with the VI's and logic screensets I always "loose" my open VI.

Example: I'm on screenset 1 in Logic - in my set-up - arrange window + transport on screen 1, enviroment and audio window + video (if applicable) on screen 2. I'm editing the VI and switching between Logic and VI. Now I want a quick peek at the score so I hit screenset 2 - my score layout windows. Have a look then hit screenset 1 to return to the arrange page. Unfortunately the open VI has closed itself so to restore you have to open the plug-in again.

do you know a work round that will stop the VI window closing when you move between screensets and back again?

thanks

Julian

No unfortunately I don't - I think the window only stays open when you just click back and forward without changing screen sets.

It's a compromise you live with and of course everyone is hoping and waiting for this to eventually be resolved. The main point is that this is a host limitation, to which the VSL team could not presently find a work around better than what we have, because it is simply technically not possible, and this was the best compromise. However, considering it's pretty much a one of a kind first and best in it's class instrument (by far), again, it's a set back that is for me at least, a non-issue especially when you compare it with using EXS and all the glaring drawbacks of that system when used with a huge sample library for example. I have every confidence that as soon as this can be resolved it will be. We have to remember that the VSL team are users of VI as well! and I'm sure they'd just like all of us want to have it as efficient streamlined and reliable as any of the other users, so as soon as it can be done, I'm sure it will be.

I didn't mention before also VI has it's on on the fly sample compression for the 24bit files which means you don't really lose out on disk space or RAM for the extra bit depth (as far as I understand it anyway, though I'm not a technical experct on the inner workings of VI).

Miklos.

Julian & Miklos,

This may not solve all the issues but since I use a MIDI controller (in my case a Mackie Control Universal) when I'm using the VI I can still use the transport controller section without having to go back and click on Logic to access it for transport purposes.

It doesn't help when I need to go back to access the Arrrange, Matrix or other windows per se. But I does help immeasurably since I'm usually going back and forth between the VI and the transport functions.

Now paying a wad for a Mackie might be overkill but if this method fits in with your workflow habits you should check this out, it's less than $199:

http://www.presonus.com/faderport.html

@mpower88 said:

The worst you have to do, which is actually one of the best features, is to optimise RAM - but if you use Cubase as I just found out you don't need to do that if you freeze the track - you can unload the instrument which free's up the RAM AND the cpu... very cool. If you use logic, the freeze function presently keeps the samples in ram, so when using Logic I optimise and then freeze but it's painless enough, and best of all you can just keep on loading instruments.

Just wanted to point out that if you turn the "instrument channel" to "off," Logic no longer keeps its samples in RAM. When you want to write with that instrument again, simply put it back on the correct channel and all your instruments will autoload (Note: I do not own VI, so I dont know if it works the same way, but every other plugin I've tried, Kontakt, atmosphere, EXS, does indeed work as expected).

Hope you find this information useful. I did, and frankly dont know how I got along without it!

I've been reading through your posts with great interest as I'm currently considering upgrading my OPUS EXS to Vienna Special Edition, and though the new content is great, I am not 100% sold on upgrading (mainly because I'm a student and money is an issue) unless the VI player will dramatically improve my work flow.

Most of the "advantages" seem to stem from the ability to switch numerous articulations more easily. Will this advantage translate to Special Edition, given the fact that most instruments only have 4 articulations; sus, stac, Sforzato, and legato? My template currently use midi channel splitters to easily switch between articulations on a single track, so I already have my violins on one track, violas on one track, etc. So is the ability to load all my flute patches into on VI any different than what I'm currently doing? BTW, can you load, for example, flute and piccolo patches in the same VI for scoring parts that double?

Thank you in advance for your help and reply! As a student with an EXTREMELY tight budget, Its very difficult/frustrating not knowing if something is worth the money, especially when you are not allow to try it/return. Thus I truly appreciate user feedback! THANK YOU
-Jon

Hi Jon,

yes, layering and stacking is no problem in the VI (up to 3 patches in 1 cell, and you can "Cell Xfade" between the first two cells).

Please have a look at our Video Tutorials, the video is called "tacking and Layering Patches" [:)]

Best, Paul

Yeah, I saw that video a while ago, but didnt make the connection that you could layer different instruments into the same VI player (Piccolo & Flute). I guess you wouldn't really do this very often, as EQ and rev settings would effect BOTH instruments. There is no "multi channel" VI, correct?

I'm going to be an iconoclast - but only after saying that the Vienna Instruments player is brilliant and that of course it's a huge advance over the EXS and Giga versions in every way.

However, it's nice to be able to get at the samples every once in a while, for example to time-stretch scale runs and transpose individual notes in Melodyne.

Nick,

What stops you from doing those two things currently? Once you take the output from the VI & turn it into audio you should be free to do with it as you wish in Melodyne.

There are several ways to do that in Logic. I don't use DP but I imagine its pretty much the same process. If memory serves me those are your two sequencers.

I just recently installed Appassionata Strings and Logic 7 on my new macbook. When I go to the mix window and go to an Audio Instrument Channel Strip, and click on input, my VSL is not an option. The only sounds I see are the Garage Band instruments. What do I need to do so that I can use Appassionata Strings in Logic?
thanks
Tony