@Nick Batzdorf said:

No such thing as a free dinner, Plowman. [:)]

I'll find the seq and load it up.

Oh, and you're right about what I said about 64-bit marketing. But I don't think I'm going far out on a limb - it's obvious that this isn't all going to change overnight; we're going to be using multiple computers for the forseeable future. And I say that even before taking into account that developers always write software that pushes the boundaries and brings current machines to their knees.

Case in point: MIR.

I think you're right, Nick. The extra hype about Leopard's 64-bit capabilities had many wondering if networks would finally get smaller at least. I never thought they'd go away, but it did instill a rather false sense of optimism for the short term which has proven to be a little disappointing.

But now that a year of Intel-Macs has passed we can at least budget more appropriately. I don't mind investing in a network if I know that I'll get 2-3 years out of it, but if computers were to really take a flying leap forward over the next 6-12 months and I've tossed tens of thousands of dollars into soon-to-be-antiquated technology-- well, let's just say it becomes less a matter of the actual dollar amount spent rather than the manner and purpose for which is might have been wasted.

I really feel a lot better now knowing what hardware upgrades will be most practical over the next year or two. This doesn't change my wish list, but it does inspire a more realistic approach rooted in fact instead of spec.

Okay, I didn't even have to load it again. This is from the article in our current issue (Virtual Instruments mag). I see from my own figure caption that the sequence isn't playing:

@Another User said:

Fig. 1: 7GB on one machine, and it’s running reliably. This Activity Monitor screen dump shows 6.96GB of memory access in a G5 with 8GB loaded. The VSL-Server program is listing samples loaded into the plug-in versions of the VSL Vienna Instruments player running inside Logic Pro, which is accessing 1.38GB. (Logic is also running other programs, including Spectrasonics Stylus RMX.)

Four stand-alone copies of the Vienna Instruments player (all named differently, which you don’t see) are running outside Logic. In addition, Native Instruments Kore is running several instruments, including Toontrack’s EZ-Drummer (a sample-playing instrument).

While the sequence isn’t playing here, you can see from the idling percentages that the CPU hit isn’t going to be outrageous. That’s what’s changed recently to make this possible.

http://homepage.mac.com/virtualinstruments/.Pictures/seq%20not%20playing.png">

Kore uses a fair amount of CPU, by the way, but the VSL and Logic programs aren't.

The fact is though that how many users need to have access to 3+ GB of memory for one single process? Besides high-end scientific and pro applications, no one.

It's really a niche market, so I wouldn't be surprised that this takes some time to work.

I'll always remember the words of one of Logic's top developers when I met with them about a year agor: "More than 3GB of Memory? What for?"

(He wasn't joking).

Jerome

@Jerome said:

I'll always remember the words of one of Logic's top developers when I met with them about a year agor: "More than 3GB of Memory? What for?"

(He wasn't joking).

Jerome

Hey-- let's head up to Cupertino, chain the guy to a 2.0 dual, hand him VSL's Cube....

Then, let's insist that he "Mac Pro This" where the sun doesn't shine and see if 3GB out of 550+GB is not a tight fit! j/k

Seriously, we're talking Apple and Logic. We're talking Pro Applications (Apple's term). We're now talking Mac Pro machines (also Apple's term). So, does Apple's definition of a Pro User not include those of us electronic musicians using such things as the Cube and other high end sample libraries?

Just keeps me wondering and inspires greater patience.

I think the problem is that many if not most Apple's pro users do not absolutely need to access more than 3GB of memory... Think Final Cut studio apps or Aperture... granted, it'd be nice, but there are many other features more important to them. Teechnically, they are more looking for faster processors than more ram.

Even when thinking about Logic, its main target is people in the recording industry (songwriters, producers, etc) or electronic musicians - not "traditionnal composers" (or film composers) per say. These "composers" are the only one who really need to load a bunch of samples, and can hardly be satifsied with the 3GB barrier.

Jerome

@Jerome said:

I think the problem is that many if not most Apple's pro users do not absolutely need to access more than 3GB of memory... Think Final Cut studio apps or Aperture... granted, it'd be nice, but there are many other features more important to them. Teechnically, they are more looking for faster processors than more ram.

Even when thinking about Logic, its main target is people in the recording industry (songwriters, producers, etc) or electronic musicians - not "traditionnal composers" (or film composers) per say. These "composers" are the only one who really need to load a bunch of samples, and can hardly be satifsied with the 3GB barrier.

Jerome

LOL!

Why is it that I now want to take RAM *out* of my computer? [:)]

I had a long talk with a friend of mine who doesn't use VIs at all, but just software plugins and audio tracks. We have the same machine-- Dual PPC 2.5. He manages to do huge sessions with 6 or more Altiverbs among many other things-- and I-don't-know-how-many aux busses (20+?).

2GB RAM. That's all he uses. I've tried to run the same size session on my computer with 4+ GB-- no dice.

I think I should send my G5 in for a check up.

(Determination is so exhausting.)

"While the sequence isn’t playing here, you can see from the idling percentages that the CPU hit isn’t going to be outrageous."

If by "idle" you mean the transport isn't running, my concerns remain.

When my slow-as-Mac-o-lasses dual 1.8 is loaded with 1 GB for VI and 0.5 GB for Logic, "idle" records a CPU of about 13% for VI and 31% for Logic. When I hit play for an empty song (RAM loaded but no music), VI's CPU goes to 25% and Logic goes to 60% with nothing playing. That's approximately double the "idle" CPU numbers.

And what an irony we face, looking forward to 64-bit and expanded memory. Imagine the CPU you'll lose just getting out of the starting gate when you hit "play" with 10 GB loaded. But hey, maybe Clovertown will blow that away in an instant. Interesting, hopeful times. But cautious times as well.

Plowman, I'm exhausted now. [:)]

You want to see it moving with nothing playing. Okay, maybe sometime I'll do that.

But in all honesty I don't really care - the point is that it works on my ancient 2 x 2.5. The CPU doesn't go way up when I push play, by the way.

Also note that it goes higher than 100%, depending on the situation, since there are two processors.

@Nick Batzdorf said:

.... my ancient 2 x 2.5. ...

[:'(] [:'(] [:'(]

It's a shame when you have lightbulbs that burn for longer than a computer will stay current.

("current"--- no pun intended-- really!)

Plowman,

I have to say that I'm seeing similar problems with my dual 1.8... maybe it's just a "dud"? It was fine for a couple of years, but the VIs appear to have pushed it over the edge. As I understand it, Apple did some board-level tweaking to the G5s after the dual 1.8 (mine is the original with 8 ram slots), but I've never had this confirmed. Anyway, I'm seriously considering a Mac Pro, it's just a question of when. We'll see what Apple announces later today -- hopefully something worth buying.

J.

[H] MACWORLD

@Another User said:

[H] MACWORLD

Atta boy!

Hey! Quit putting words into my mouth!

[H] MacWorld.

@mpower88 said:

Hey! Quit putting words into my mouth!

[H] MacWorld.

LOL


hey-- 40 minutes to Keynote...

IPhone and ITv

that's it....

no 64 bit / Leopard talk



patience...


SvK

"...mine is the original with 8 ram slots."

Interesting. So is mine. Yes, maybe this is computer-specific. I could not figure why, after all the forum reading I do, no one was talking about the strange CPU hit that I was getting just for putting the SPL in motion. Others have corroborated it, but not in the consensus I was expecting. And it's still a puzzle why I lose double my CPU to play nothing! What can the CPU be preparing to do after I hit play if there's no music in the song?

Well, the keynote is over, and I have been reminded once again that I live in a niche market. Apparently more people are interested in phones than virtual orchestras. It hardly seems fair.

Perhaps Apple is coordinating the Leopard / eight core push with the release of Vista. I guess strictly speaking Leopard has already been premiered, and "eight core" and "64-bit" don't mean much to Joe Apple User. Or, more importantly, Joe Apple Stock Holder.

Nick, please conserve all personal resources. We need you at NAMM and VI Mag.

We'll both be there. [:)]

Note that they changed the name of the company to Apple - it's no longer Apple Computer.

I think any talk about computers will be another time.

Yeah, while the iPhone looks fancy and all, I was pretty let down by the keynote.

I know that nothing really huge can even happen to the Mac Pro -- 8-core, yes, but that won't actually have *that* much effect on a day-to-day basis -- but it would have been nice to maybe see the common "bump". You know, maybe put the standard config up to 2 GB RAM, or something like that... or maybe a small price dip. The kind of things they did all the time with the G4s.

Anyway, most of the real Mac geeks out there feel pretty confident that actual computer-related announcements will come in the follwing weeks. I'm in the market for a Mac Pro already, so the wait is pure torture.

J.

ps -- Yes, Plowman, it's very interesting to hear that you also have the 8-slot version. I had heard about logic board design issues in that machine, which were *very* quitely repaired in the next revision. There was something about interference between adjacent traces on the logic board. Anyway, it was all something I literally overheard, about 3 years ago, so it's murky to say the least. One thing's for sure; my machine is great up to a point, but beyond that point it demonstrates some strange behavior indeed. No fun. Have you tried using it as a slave? I don't have a setup where I can really do that very effectively, but I'm curious how well it would run. The main thing is that it can load more into RAM than my other machines (4 GB installed), so I'd like to be able to keep it and just add it to the farm. My problems all seem related to running sequencers/notation programs with VIs running at the same time.
My biggest fear, though, is that I spend $n000.00 clams on a new Mac Pro, and the problem doesn't go away. Hard to imagine, but an absolute nightmare if it happened.