Vienna Symphonic Library Forum
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  • HERB...concerning Appass Celli...

    Herb,

    It's probably to late to ask


    Regarding the Cellos.....

    Celli so often are written divisi........and I fear that a section size of 10.....will be very chorusy when attempting divisi



    For musical purposes............we really need them performed like "Apassionata Violins" but with a smaller section size.

    (like the old miroslav espressivo cello) BUT performed with 3 cellos.......so writing divisi does not become so chorusy.....


    The problem with the sustained Cellos at this point in VI is that they are lifeless compared to say the old misoslav espressivo cello patch....(which really had magic)

    I guess what I really would love is the Celli to be performed like the Appass Violins.....but with a section size of 5 in addition to the 10...


    thanx,

    SvK

  • HERB,

    My email did not come of right...

    The only sounds in VI.....that to my ear do not come of as fantastic are the celli...

    Everything else is brilliant.....




    SvK

  • Thoughts anyone?

    SvK

  • There are some pretty passionate patches in the Chamber Strings, but I also agree that the Cellos of the Orchestral VI can be rather "cold".

    DG

  • Not to mention that performing appregiated figures with the perf-leg cello is virtually impossible....It's sounds bumpy.......

    And by the time you draw in all the volume dips to cover the harsh perf-leg bumps...your inspiration is in the toilet.

    The point is that appregiated celli figures are a Cello-Staple...and it just should not be so difficult/impossible to get it to sound 1/2 way decent with our mega-buck product.

    SvK

  • Im with Svonkampen on this one, the Celli always come off as the weak point of the VIs. Divisi and Arppegios are not coming off realistic at all, and only see the problem here being greater with an extended ensemble like the appasionatas.

    Well, we will soon see how it all pans out. [:)]

  • SVK,

    i´m with you totally and I wish more users would ask for better cellos.
    Even East West has partially more magic to them.
    It´s all about how the players perform on recording day.
    (And also: Please dont´t forget the Sordino articulations)

    Best
    Oliver

  • It must depend on what the cellos are doing musically because I've layered in the VSL cellos with a real orchestra and they were perfect and beautiful etc., etc.

    Miroslav had very expressive samples in their strings that had crescendo in the samples (as in their violins.) Many of us missed this with the new more complete and better production libraries. It may just be the addition of certain types of performance samples that are esspressivo (another set of articulations in other words.)

    Since VSL is growing all the time and responsive to their base of customers they may be interested in creating add-ons to their library as long as we're interested in paying for them.

  • dpcon....

    Yes you are right the .......Miroslav Espressivo Celli...DO have an ever so slight crescendo and progressive vibrato.....that's what make Miro sustains so playable.


    That's the thing though....


    The VSL / VI dynamic Celli samples are great, however they are all "radical" crescendos..... "p to f" and "p to mf"..... for sustained patches we need "ppp to mp"

    subtle lifts in volume and vibrato.

    The Appass violins are excellent...............in general a greater focus should be made in very subtle dynamic samples " pp to mp" that sort of thing....


    This will help tremendously....



    The other the thing is a much more elaborate dynamic enveloping scheme.....

    Linear fade-ins are the most unmusical of all ...Always use equal power AND we need to be able assign Velocity and other controllers to the Attack time of the envelope.....

    This does wonders for expression. And low-pass filters are useless since they cut away all the Air of the instruments which needs to be retained......the answer to this is velocity/mod-wheel controlled broadband EQs....this retains the AIR of the samples.




    SvK

  • SvK, I agree that slight crescendo's are a different species and would be helpful. Maybe they will surface in the VSL at some point.

    I think that Herb's and co.'s philosophy on expression is via the interface so it may be minutely controlled. The good thing about Miro was at times a drawback, if it didn't work at a certain tempo or work exactly as one may have wished in a given context.

  • dpcon.....


    check your PM's

    SvK

  • The "problem" with samples is that they are being used for different purposes. Simple purposes, complex purposes, idiotic purposes, brilliant purposes, etc.

    I feel the VSL cellos are extremely "apassionata" already, but you cannot use them instantaneously - any more than you can use a real cello section instantaneously. It depends on how you are using the various notes, articulations, etc. I have the complete original Miroslav library (for which I paid an OBSCENE price at the time), and it was really good, however... it has about one note for each one hundred of VSL. So it is rather limited, to put it mildly. But the basic sound was excellent. Nevertheless, the VSL sound is incredibly good, when used in context, and completely blows away all other sample libraries yet in existence. The biggest problem is when people try to use sounds that are extremely detailed, in all articulations---- generically. That is a disaster. You will fail every time if you think this kind of detail instantly translates into perfect orchestration. Try going to a live orchestra with that assumption and you will discover the same phenomena.

    BTW, I have done it. In both cases. And paid the price. I am old and have been punished...

  • Hi all,

    This cue is unfinished....but I'm demoing it as I wanted to show how effective assigning the gain of a broadband EQ to the Pitch-bend is to mock-up subtle crescendos from ppp-to p. (instead of using low-pass filters, which kill all the Air and sound fake.)

    In this Cue I did it to single vel-layer instruments...specifically the celli, clarinet and flute.


    I think once I work out the counterpoint and add high strings....this could really be good.

    thoughts?

    click on "Beautiful_Ghost1.mp3"

    http://homepage.mac.com/WebObjects/FileSharing.woa/wa/default?user=svonkampen&templatefn=FileSharing1.html&xmlfn=TKDocument.1.xml&sitefn=RootSite.xml&aff=consumer&cty=US&lang=en

    SvK

  • last edited
    last edited

    @William said:

    The "problem" with samples is that they are being used for different purposes. Simple purposes, complex purposes, idiotic purposes, brilliant purposes, etc.

    I feel the VSL cellos are extremely "apassionata" already, but you cannot use them instantaneously - any more than you can use a real cello section instantaneously. It depends on how you are using the various notes, articulations, etc. I have the complete original Miroslav library (for which I paid an OBSCENE price at the time), and it was really good, however... it has about one note for each one hundred of VSL. So it is rather limited, to put it mildly. But the basic sound was excellent. Nevertheless, the VSL sound is incredibly good, when used in context, and completely blows away all other sample libraries yet in existence. The biggest problem is when people try to use sounds that are extremely detailed, in all articulations---- generically. That is a disaster. You will fail every time if you think this kind of detail instantly translates into perfect orchestration. Try going to a live orchestra with that assumption and you will discover the same phenomena.

    BTW, I have done it. In both cases. And paid the price. I am old and have been punished...


    Excellent points William. If we consider a simple string line, and examine it closely, the inflections and subtleties, on top of the broader defined articulations, make for a lot of work, if close emulation of 'live' is our goal. And as someone else who bought Miroslav back some years ago, i've spent considerable amounts of time reshaping and sculpting what was a fairly simply library into something at least half reasonable, not in terms of tone, but the actual mechanics of performance. I couldn't count the time i spent mixing and blending, searching for a 'more real' result.
    I also share your view that VSL are the benchmark on which other sample libraries are judged. Tonally, and with many many broad and subtle samples with which we can work, VSL sets the pace.
    It's, at this point, worth mentioning the performance. Even with the opportunities available in VSL, ultimately its up to us to take that range further, and shape it into a performance. You'll know, as a fellow Miroslav user, just how hard we have to work to produce a reasonably competent performance. I've also noted how enthusiastic VI owners are when they wax lyrical about the ease of use, and time saved using this important development in sample usage, and manipulation.
    Even then, as you quite rightly wrote, using these tools instantaneously isn't possible, anymore than using a live section. Like you, i've conducted and rehearsed orchestras, and there's a deal of work to do before the performance could be ajudged 'ready', so to expect this from samples is unreal.

    I'll add to this mention of the skill level of the performer. It took me some time, and a lot of practise, to get to an orchestral performance level on clarinet, and piano. Years and years of study and tutelage. And a sample library, even at what seems now a simple articulative format like Miroslav, is a far more complex instrument to learn, and practise with.
    A simple example is bows up and down. How many sample library owners can write a string line with up and downs in the 'right spots?' Hardly a limitation that can be attributed to sample libraries.

    And yes my friend, I too have made assumptions in the past about live and sample performance related to expectations of 'instant orchestrative nirvana', and learned through the humility of error that to assume an instant translation is to err in judgement. More than one un-playable part has hit the bin!

    I think our own expectations of what one can do 'out of the box' could be reviewed. VSL has gone a long way to making life much, much, easier with the VI's, with a wonderful range of layers and articulations (and that's without mentioning the glorious tone across the libraries), but for a finished, polished, and competent performance, the responsibility for that still remains firmly within our own range of abilities, and our expectations, with one not always matching the other.

    Regards,

    Alex.