I'm with you on that, Stephen. I think main big point that comes out of this discussion/investigation is that it may be worth VSL bulking-up the standalone a little - different midi channels, access to channels on audio devices, and maybe even multiple instances of the VI -- like a host, but not a host for plugins, just a host for the basic VI. I don't know exactly what could be done in this regard, but it certainly seems worthwhile to investigate what's possible with multiple processes.
I had the idea a while ago about the vsl-server actually spawning new instances of itself in response to memory demand, and based on available memory. Though I suppose this could be a bit of a nightmare with the server. Mind you, since the standalone seems totally self-contained, it certainly is a good candidate for such "spawning"...

J.

Given the revelations in this thread, I think that simply allowing the player to access different audio interface outputs would solve the problem - and from my armchair it doesn't seem like it would be a huge deal to implement.

I'm really curious to hear from someone who has more than 8GB installed in a Mac Pro. Can you keep loading instances? Or are there other limitations, such as CPU?

I've had no success so far in eliciting separate audio outs from different standalone instances. Also I've run into a problem when trying to record (a MIDI recording) of a perf legato cello loaded into a VI plugin after recording a sus-vib violin in the standalone. THe cello's notes keep getting cut off when I'm trying to play along with violin. However if I record the perf-legato cello first using the plugin, I can then record the violin (in the standalone) without anomalies in either instrument. Clearly this is, at least in my implementation, far from a perfect solution. (I don't think the problems I encountered result from my computer's deficiencies as, using the plugin version in the normal fashion, I'm able to play a good number of very complex matrices simultaneously - - without anomalies).

I don't think that the standalone was designed with aim of using it simultaneously with the plugin , so it would be great if the usage we've discussed in this thread - - which is essentially to find a way to overcome the RAM limits imposed by a 32bit system - - were included in the design goals of the standalone. Of course a comprehensive solution would be a 64bit version of OSX (which supposedly OS 10.5 will be), a 64 bit version of Logic and a 64bit version of the Vienna Instruments software. This desirable goal does not seem entirely likely in the immediate future, so refining the standalone, especially in light of the current licensing policy restricting each library segment to one machine, would be a significant interim improvement. If one computer can do the job of several machines even with present day technology, why not do it?

Steve, are you sure it's not a MIDI loop causing the cut off notes?

I actually think it could be an ideal solution in some ways, because the samples are loaded outside the sequencer and you can just leave them loaded when changing cues.

Okay, I'm going to try the instruments you mentioned and see how it behaves for me...

Thanks guys for testing this out. It this works, we're definitely on something here!!!

Jerome

Well, Steve's right. It looks like the stand-alone and the plug-in are sharing polyphony, or maybe one brain lobe. I loaded two perf legato instruments (actually the big programs) and found the same thing: they cut each other off.

In addition, the stand-alone instrument was a little sluggish - there was some latency.

Maybe a second host will solve the problem.

Crap. It was too good to be true!!!

Did you try with two different instruments? Or were there the same patches? (Just making sure).

I don't see how a second host could solve the problem, because we'll be back into the "VSL Server" issue again :/

Wait, hold the presses.

It was operator error. Batzdorf screwed up.

I was modwheel-switching to a short note.

Idiot!

It's working fine.

Now I have to see whether the sluggishness is real...

Yeah, it's working fine.

The latency isn't bad - it was just a slow program. I loaded the same program inside a plug-in instance and it plays exactly the same.

Moral: it's never too good to be true.

Other moral: Batzdorf, slow down before posting. [:)]

Ok, so...

You're basically saying it's working fine. Can you try with three instances + one host? Four independent lines with volume automation... just to see if it works without any problem... and I'll be tempted to get a MacPro and try it out, hehe [:)]


Now, the only problem will be how to get the signal flow to work. Because the whole point is to get at least as many outputs that we would get from a regular computer farm (like the Mac Mini Farm concept, for example).... and if we can't select channels inside the Stand Alone, that's going to get complicated...

Jerome

I messed around with Jack for a while yesterday and this morning, both on ppc and Intel, but I couldn't get the VI standalone to connect to the Jack device -- error about being busy or wrong parameters. I got Soundflower to work yesterday without any real problems, but it does mean only getting stereo input from all running standalones.

Any better experiences from you guys?

J.

--- Actually, to get Jack working would really be the solution, because Jack routes audio by application, so each VI standalone, having selected Jack as its device, would be given an independent input to the Jack router. Ideal... but the VI won't connect to Jack... ouch. Any ideas why this might be, anybody? ------

You can use Built-in as one sound driver and connect lightpipe out to in, then use that as the input inside your host. There's one output.

Then you use Soundflower as the second.

And for the third...are you by any chance using an RME interface? Its loopback mode can route the output back to its own input and then into the software. So you'd have three.

I opened the same file that exhibited problems with notes being cut off yesterday (which had first worked fine and then not worked so well after I fiddled around unsuccsfully with Jack OSX. It still had the same problems this morning. I made a new file that duplicated the settings of the original file (but was not a duplicate thereof).

In Logic:

1. created two MIDI Instruments named VSL Standalone 1 and 2
2 set the ports of these instruments to IAC port 3 and Iac Port 4 respectively.
3. Disconnected the Physical Input sum from the Input Monitor atached to the Sequence Input Object
4. connected the appropriate ports (but not IAC Ports 3 or 4) individually to the Input Monitor.
5. Launched two instances of the standalone and loaded 1 patch into each
6. Instantiated one instance of the VI Plugin as a Logic Audio Instrument

Result:

No more problems with notes being cut off with any combination of 3 perf legato or single note instruments. Only problem is that all standalone audio outputs go to the same channels. I would try Nick's solution if I had the right cables to go from Built In Audio to the MOTU 2408. That loopback feature of the RME interface sounds pretty nifty.

As to why the original file ceased to work properly, I (for want of any obviously compelling evidence) speculate that fooling around with Jack OSX in combination with Soundflower may have damaged the file and caused the cut off notes.

It might be helpful if we started a thread with a feature request for the standalone asking that the folks at VSL consider adding the ability to choose audio output channels to it - - and perhaps also that they consider giving it the ability to receive MIDI on specific channels rather than requring the use of an entire bus.

Again many thanks to everyone for their efforts regarding this issue.

Stephen

Hey Stephen,

it seems to me that the possibility to choose an audio channel out the Stand Alone is not a difficult feature to add. Maybe I'm wrong - but it'd be nice to get VSL view on this. Because if they did allow this, then the whole concept would be perfect. You could have one Stand Alone instance per instrument for example....

Also, I don't think the VSL team will implement Midi Channels anytime soon. It would be a significant departure from their original concept. For now, I'm using transformers inside Logic, to convert channels to controllers. This allows me to have up to 16 samples loaded per VI instance.

Jerome

Okay, three instances stand-alone outside Logic, one instance inside Logic, and one Kontakt 2 outside Logic all working perfectly and solidly on a cue made up of :25 of noodling. The CPU load is normal, latency is fine...although I'm not stressing the memory at the moment.

At this point the only issue is with K2, getting it to see the right MIDI channels of the IAC bus, but it will.

Nick:

Are you saying that the VI plugin loaded into Kontakt 2 inhabits a separate memory segment from that occupied by the VI plugin in Logic so that you're getting two instances of the VSL-Server?

There's no V.I. plug-in loaded into Kontakt 2. I'm running an instance of K2 outside Logic in order for it to get its own memory space just like the V.I. stand-alones are.

I have a V.I. plug-in and a K2 plug-in loaded inside Logic as well. The system isn't maxed out at the moment, but the point is you can access about 7GB that way! And you might be able access as much as 15GB in a 16GB machine!

http://homepage.mac.com/virtualinstruments/.Pictures/Logic,%203%20Viennas,%20K2,%20other%20stuff.png">

Nick:

I think get it - - you are running non Vienna Instrument samples in Kontakt 2. And thanks for your persistent intelligence. (No wonder I'm a subscriber to Virtual Instruments magazine!)

One more question: am I correct in believing that, in light of what you've suggested regarding using the built-in-audio s/pidf output and feeding it back into the main audio interface, one could do the same thing with one or more audio interfaces (attached to the same computer as the main audio interface) so that each of these interfaces could provide a separate output destination for the VI stand-alone but be fed into the main interface?

I want to say that the discussion on this thread is an example of truly creative response to a challenge. I very much hope that the folks at VSL are taking notice and willl incorporate features that make overcoming the 32 bit limit part of the design goal in future releases of Vienna Instruments software.

Stephen

Sure Steve, you can loop the audio back into any audio interface; the interface doesn't know it's coming from its own output. The only potential issues are the obvious ones: you might not want to give up a whole 8-channel lightpipe just for two channels; and you have to be careful not to set up feedback loops.

What I was actually suggesting is looping the Mac's optical S/PDIF back to its own in, and adding the built-in audio interface as part of an aggregate device. I haven't tried that to see if the latency is okay, though; I have been using the Mac's digital in to monitor my MBox 2 dongle for the Pro Tools software, and the latency isn't very good. But that may not be representative, since I'm going through an RCA-optical format converter and haven't tried lowering the buffer.

And thanks for both the compliment and subscribing. [;)]

By the way, both Jerome and I from my armchair were suggesting that making the stand-alone see separate outputs shouldn't be a big deal. It occurs to me that it's using the same output driver the system sound uses; am I right that other software hooks into Core Audio through a different pathway? That might not be so trivial a change.

Oh, and I should also report that Soundflower is the shizzle. I installed it yesterday, and it works really well.