Enough complaining about strings - please help

[Rob Elliott]

I may have 'stumbled' onto something that gets me a little closer to that 'sweeping string sound' I need on occasion.

Doubling the VL20 (leg perf trill) patch I have 'nestled back' behind the string line - flute, clarinet, basson and the the TR-3 unisons the line at one point.

This took me a rather hasty 20 minutes to basically improve one track at a time (starting with the string line) so it is very 'light' on structure / form - I just want a quick starting point and get some ideas and suggestions from our members- try this, try that comments from ya.

No real mixing as this is coming straight from my 4 slaves into a master 2 ch track. Some W2 verb.

Thanks for any advice you can have to fine tune this sound and more importantly how to get it more convincingly.

All the best,


Rob


http://www.robelliottmusic.com/mp3s/Americana/Hero%20Compassion%20idea.mp3

[svonkampen]

Rob,

What a great piece of music...

My stuff is mostly dark..I wish I could write like this

...this reminds me of Silvestri's approach to "Contact"...I really dig this! The programming is top-notch.

SvK

[JWL]

Rob--

I know you said that this wasn't really mixed, but I've got to compliment you on the overall sonic concept. I loved how the reverb worked even on this *rough* version. You've got a good sound going, there. (What are you using for reverb, btw?)

The composition? Nice. Those gentle rubs are sweet. The brass seems to expand nicely without overwhelming the other instruments.

Now, tell us more about this VL 20 technique-- you say you have it "nestled back behind the string line"-- what did you use for your front-end string line? A regular perf-leg? And the leg perf trill adds an underlying hint of activity (energy? anxiety? urgency?) to the basic violin part? Do tell.

I can only compare what you've done with what most of us start out doing with a single violin patch, but all I can really say is that wherever you're going you're headed in the right direction. Would be nice to hear a before and after version-- with leg-perf-trill and without....

[JBacal]

Rob,

Lovely, warm, touching Hollywood sound. I particularly like the brass work.

The timbre of the strings is very agreeable. Only during the faster notes of the melody do the strings reveal their sampled origin.

I'm afraid there is currently no painless way to achieve extremely realistic ensemble string melodies.

My hope is that Herb and VSL will record a performance detache patch for the Appassionata strings with lots of passionate changing of bow direction.

Keep experimenting. You're getting very close.

Best,
Jay

[Rob Elliott]

Man, guys - thanks alot - maybe I should just 'improvise' from now on. Maybe the last thing I quick put in there - the cres timp made it sound like a real cue [:O]ops:


The vln is the appasionata - perf legato trill patch. The WW's are unison doubling (flt hi, clarinet mid, basson, low). That's pretty much it. A real quick 'pad' off of my controller just to give it a quick harmonic bed. As I listen again I think the tr-3 (unison in parts) and the HO-8 counter melody sets it off ok.

Hope this helps.


Rob

[Guy Bacos]

__

[tomhartman]

@Rob Elliott said:

I may have 'stumbled' onto something that gets me a little closer to that 'sweeping string sound' I need on occasion.

Doubling the VL20 (leg perf trill) patch I have 'nestled back' behind the string line - flute, clarinet, basson and the the TR-3 unisons the line at one point.

This took me a rather hasty 20 minutes to basically improve one track at a time (starting with the string line) so it is very 'light' on structure / form - I just want a quick starting point and get some ideas and suggestions from our members- try this, try that comments from ya.

No real mixing as this is coming straight from my 4 slaves into a master 2 ch track. Some W2 verb.



Thanks for any advice you can have to fine tune this sound and more importantly how to get it more convincingly.

All the best,


Rob


http://www.robelliottmusic.com/mp3s/Americana/Hero%20Compassion%20idea.mp3

Rob, Rob, now stop writing such good stuff you are taking me out of my lazy mode and making me stand at attention[;)]

Most of it sounds great but you know me and the legato stuff, I still hear some of those "a bit rough" note transitions that I hear in my stuff all the time. I have to go back in the editor and even though the notes LOOK like they are already overlapping, I pull them to the right a little more whenever I hear that and it solves it. I also have to make sure that if I STILL hear it after doing that, that there is not a velocity change from one note to the other that is too drastic. Between the two that usually solves it.

Great music Mr. Rob.

Tom

[Guy Bacos]

__

[Rob Elliott]

@Rob Elliott said:

I may have 'stumbled' onto something that gets me a little closer to that 'sweeping string sound' I need on occasion.

Doubling the VL20 (leg perf trill) patch I have 'nestled back' behind the string line - flute, clarinet, basson and the the TR-3 unisons the line at one point.

This took me a rather hasty 20 minutes to basically improve one track at a time (starting with the string line) so it is very 'light' on structure / form - I just want a quick starting point and get some ideas and suggestions from our members- try this, try that comments from ya.

No real mixing as this is coming straight from my 4 slaves into a master 2 ch track. Some W2 verb.



Thanks for any advice you can have to fine tune this sound and more importantly how to get it more convincingly.

All the best,


Rob


http://www.robelliottmusic.com/mp3s/Americana/Hero%20Compassion%20idea.mp3

Rob, Rob, now stop writing such good stuff you are taking me out of my lazy mode and making me stand at attention[;)]

Most of it sounds great but you know me and the legato stuff, I still hear some of those "a bit rough" note transitions that I hear in my stuff all the time. I have to go back in the editor and even though the notes LOOK like they are already overlapping, I pull them to the right a little more whenever I hear that and it solves it. I also have to make sure that if I STILL hear it after doing that, that there is not a velocity change from one note to the other that is too drastic. Between the two that usually solves it.

Great music Mr. Rob.

Tom


Tom - good ideas - I hadn't even thought about doing this. So you toy around with one or the other velocity and get them to sound like the belong next to each other? I had just assume they would be supplied that way -given the velocities.. Great idea.


Rob

[tomhartman]

@Rob Elliott said:

I may have 'stumbled' onto something that gets me a little closer to that 'sweeping string sound' I need on occasion.

Doubling the VL20 (leg perf trill) patch I have 'nestled back' behind the string line - flute, clarinet, basson and the the TR-3 unisons the line at one point.

This took me a rather hasty 20 minutes to basically improve one track at a time (starting with the string line) so it is very 'light' on structure / form - I just want a quick starting point and get some ideas and suggestions from our members- try this, try that comments from ya.

No real mixing as this is coming straight from my 4 slaves into a master 2 ch track. Some W2 verb.



Thanks for any advice you can have to fine tune this sound and more importantly how to get it more convincingly.

All the best,


Rob


http://www.robelliottmusic.com/mp3s/Americana/Hero%20Compassion%20idea.mp3

Rob, Rob, now stop writing such good stuff you are taking me out of my lazy mode and making me stand at attention[;)]

Most of it sounds great but you know me and the legato stuff, I still hear some of those "a bit rough" note transitions that I hear in my stuff all the time. I have to go back in the editor and even though the notes LOOK like they are already overlapping, I pull them to the right a little more whenever I hear that and it solves it. I also have to make sure that if I STILL hear it after doing that, that there is not a velocity change from one note to the other that is too drastic. Between the two that usually solves it.

Great music Mr. Rob.

Tom


Tom - good ideas - I hadn't even thought about doing this. So you toy around with one or the other velocity and get them to sound like the belong next to each other? I had just assume they would be supplied that way -given the velocities.. Great idea.


Rob

Rob, yes, I've noticed this more and more. Sometimes I'll go through and make sure ALL The notes are WAY overlapped...just in case....then I freeze the track in Nuendo and move on. Next thing I know, I'm playing back and I hear the dreaded "Weirdness In This Legato Phrase" syndrome. Unfreeze, go back and check, and sure enough, right where I hear the weirdness, Nuendo shows that there is a velocity change just big enough to cause the effect. I raise up the offending note's velocity up a tad and ....usually....solves it or greatly improves it....

Tom

[Guy Bacos]

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[mathis]

@Guy said:

The real problem is in an orchestra where you'd have say 40 violinist, each one will play one type of vibrato, one type of bowing, one degree of dynamic on one single note and all 40 of them will do all that differently on the next note and the next and the one after that....

Of course there's a little(!) variation between the players, but if it were that drastically like you describe it would be a really bad orchestra...
There's a first chair

[Guy Bacos]

_

[Rob Elliott]

Time saver trick - if I don't play each double again (is to use the plus/minus offset built into the sequencer. I still feel playing doubles, triples is better but I did have to use this on this recent ridiculous schedule.


Rob

[stevesong]

I must say that I think the complaints about the strings are overstated - - and that a lot has to do with the mix. Listening to Alex Temple's demos of Wagner's Magic Fire Music from Die Walküre and the scherzo of Bruckner's 8th Symphony (both made with the Pro Edition and among the online demos on this site) the string sound does not scream "samples" to me.

[tomhartman]

@stevesong said:

I must say that I think the complaints about the strings are overstated - - and that a lot has to do with the mix. Listening to Alex Temple's demos of Wagner's Magic Fire Music from Die Walküre and the scherzo of Bruckner's 8th Symphony (both made with the Pro Edition and among the online demos on this site) the string sound does not scream "samples" to me.

With sample libraries I find that something that "worked" on one piece doesn't necessarily work on another. I've done things with VSL that sound fine, and then used the same presets on another piece and they sounded like they needed a lot of help. The phrase...the tempo...the dynamic, all the variations put different stresses on the "reality level" of any library. It's more hits than misses with VSL though.

TH

[Rob Elliott]

@stevesong said:

I must say that I think the complaints about the strings are overstated - - and that a lot has to do with the mix. Listening to Alex Temple's demos of Wagner's Magic Fire Music from Die Walküre and the scherzo of Bruckner's 8th Symphony (both made with the Pro Edition and among the online demos on this site) the string sound does not scream "samples" to me.

With sample libraries I find that something that "worked" on one piece doesn't necessarily work on another. I've done things with VSL that sound fine, and then used the same presets on another piece and they sounded like they needed a lot of help. The phrase...the tempo...the dynamic, all the variations put different stresses on the "reality level" of any library. It's more hits than misses with VSL though.

TH


I would say this is a fair and accurate statement to make. With the virtually limitless tweaks a group of 'live string players' can make relative to tempo, range, articulations, etc... we can't expect that one (or four velocity layers) static sample be able to capture everything needed for every kind of cue/piece we may envision.

That is not to say that we are not getting closer to it though. Personally, I think when we have access to a string library that requires 'near 100% playing' - just like a real player - inclusive of the hundreds of different ways that only one articulation can be played - that will bring us closer to the expressive 'live sounding' strings.

I marvel at the ability and patience that the mock-up people here can do in this regard by key swtiching, CC sculpting, etc. to get so close to this result.

Rob


Rob

[Guy Bacos]

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[DG]

@Rob Elliott said:

I marvel at the ability and patience that the mock-up people here can do in this regard by key swtiching, CC sculpting, etc. to get so close to this result.

Rob

I agree wholeheartedly. Of course if my string lines sound too cr*p, I just cheat. [H]

DG

[tomhartman]

@Guy said:

Here's my theory about this:

When we hear great sampling we are not always sure if it's real or sampled BUT when we hear real strings we know for 100% they are real strings(leaving out the rare, rare, rare exceptions.) and there is a world of difference between the two.Having said that, sampled strings such as VSL sounds GREAT and is close enough to the real thing to occasionally fool people.

But again, I must be talking to myself....

Wow, isn't that true? When it's a real section you don't even think about it[;)]

TH