@Rob Elliott said:

I may have 'stumbled' onto something that gets me a little closer to that 'sweeping string sound' I need on occasion.

Doubling the VL20 (leg perf trill) patch I have 'nestled back' behind the string line - flute, clarinet, basson and the the TR-3 unisons the line at one point.

This took me a rather hasty 20 minutes to basically improve one track at a time (starting with the string line) so it is very 'light' on structure / form - I just want a quick starting point and get some ideas and suggestions from our members- try this, try that comments from ya.

No real mixing as this is coming straight from my 4 slaves into a master 2 ch track. Some W2 verb.



Thanks for any advice you can have to fine tune this sound and more importantly how to get it more convincingly.

All the best,


Rob


http://www.robelliottmusic.com/mp3s/Americana/Hero%20Compassion%20idea.mp3

Rob, Rob, now stop writing such good stuff you are taking me out of my lazy mode and making me stand at attention[;)]

Most of it sounds great but you know me and the legato stuff, I still hear some of those "a bit rough" note transitions that I hear in my stuff all the time. I have to go back in the editor and even though the notes LOOK like they are already overlapping, I pull them to the right a little more whenever I hear that and it solves it. I also have to make sure that if I STILL hear it after doing that, that there is not a velocity change from one note to the other that is too drastic. Between the two that usually solves it.

Great music Mr. Rob.

Tom


Tom - good ideas - I hadn't even thought about doing this. So you toy around with one or the other velocity and get them to sound like the belong next to each other? I had just assume they would be supplied that way -given the velocities.. Great idea.


Rob

@Rob Elliott said:

I may have 'stumbled' onto something that gets me a little closer to that 'sweeping string sound' I need on occasion.

Doubling the VL20 (leg perf trill) patch I have 'nestled back' behind the string line - flute, clarinet, basson and the the TR-3 unisons the line at one point.

This took me a rather hasty 20 minutes to basically improve one track at a time (starting with the string line) so it is very 'light' on structure / form - I just want a quick starting point and get some ideas and suggestions from our members- try this, try that comments from ya.

No real mixing as this is coming straight from my 4 slaves into a master 2 ch track. Some W2 verb.



Thanks for any advice you can have to fine tune this sound and more importantly how to get it more convincingly.

All the best,


Rob


http://www.robelliottmusic.com/mp3s/Americana/Hero%20Compassion%20idea.mp3

Rob, Rob, now stop writing such good stuff you are taking me out of my lazy mode and making me stand at attention[;)]

Most of it sounds great but you know me and the legato stuff, I still hear some of those "a bit rough" note transitions that I hear in my stuff all the time. I have to go back in the editor and even though the notes LOOK like they are already overlapping, I pull them to the right a little more whenever I hear that and it solves it. I also have to make sure that if I STILL hear it after doing that, that there is not a velocity change from one note to the other that is too drastic. Between the two that usually solves it.

Great music Mr. Rob.

Tom


Tom - good ideas - I hadn't even thought about doing this. So you toy around with one or the other velocity and get them to sound like the belong next to each other? I had just assume they would be supplied that way -given the velocities.. Great idea.


Rob

Rob, yes, I've noticed this more and more. Sometimes I'll go through and make sure ALL The notes are WAY overlapped...just in case....then I freeze the track in Nuendo and move on. Next thing I know, I'm playing back and I hear the dreaded "Weirdness In This Legato Phrase" syndrome. Unfreeze, go back and check, and sure enough, right where I hear the weirdness, Nuendo shows that there is a velocity change just big enough to cause the effect. I raise up the offending note's velocity up a tad and ....usually....solves it or greatly improves it....

Tom

-

@Guy said:

The real problem is in an orchestra where you'd have say 40 violinist, each one will play one type of vibrato, one type of bowing, one degree of dynamic on one single note and all 40 of them will do all that differently on the next note and the next and the one after that....

Of course there's a little(!) variation between the players, but if it were that drastically like you describe it would be a really bad orchestra...
There's a first chair

_

Time saver trick - if I don't play each double again (is to use the plus/minus offset built into the sequencer. I still feel playing doubles, triples is better but I did have to use this on this recent ridiculous schedule.


Rob

I must say that I think the complaints about the strings are overstated - - and that a lot has to do with the mix. Listening to Alex Temple's demos of Wagner's Magic Fire Music from Die Walküre and the scherzo of Bruckner's 8th Symphony (both made with the Pro Edition and among the online demos on this site) the string sound does not scream "samples" to me.

@stevesong said:

I must say that I think the complaints about the strings are overstated - - and that a lot has to do with the mix. Listening to Alex Temple's demos of Wagner's Magic Fire Music from Die Walküre and the scherzo of Bruckner's 8th Symphony (both made with the Pro Edition and among the online demos on this site) the string sound does not scream "samples" to me.

With sample libraries I find that something that "worked" on one piece doesn't necessarily work on another. I've done things with VSL that sound fine, and then used the same presets on another piece and they sounded like they needed a lot of help. The phrase...the tempo...the dynamic, all the variations put different stresses on the "reality level" of any library. It's more hits than misses with VSL though.

TH

@stevesong said:

I must say that I think the complaints about the strings are overstated - - and that a lot has to do with the mix. Listening to Alex Temple's demos of Wagner's Magic Fire Music from Die Walküre and the scherzo of Bruckner's 8th Symphony (both made with the Pro Edition and among the online demos on this site) the string sound does not scream "samples" to me.

With sample libraries I find that something that "worked" on one piece doesn't necessarily work on another. I've done things with VSL that sound fine, and then used the same presets on another piece and they sounded like they needed a lot of help. The phrase...the tempo...the dynamic, all the variations put different stresses on the "reality level" of any library. It's more hits than misses with VSL though.

TH


I would say this is a fair and accurate statement to make. With the virtually limitless tweaks a group of 'live string players' can make relative to tempo, range, articulations, etc... we can't expect that one (or four velocity layers) static sample be able to capture everything needed for every kind of cue/piece we may envision.

That is not to say that we are not getting closer to it though. Personally, I think when we have access to a string library that requires 'near 100% playing' - just like a real player - inclusive of the hundreds of different ways that only one articulation can be played - that will bring us closer to the expressive 'live sounding' strings.

I marvel at the ability and patience that the mock-up people here can do in this regard by key swtiching, CC sculpting, etc. to get so close to this result.

Rob


Rob

_

@Rob Elliott said:

I marvel at the ability and patience that the mock-up people here can do in this regard by key swtiching, CC sculpting, etc. to get so close to this result.

Rob

I agree wholeheartedly. Of course if my string lines sound too cr*p, I just cheat. [H]

DG

@Guy said:

Here's my theory about this:

When we hear great sampling we are not always sure if it's real or sampled BUT when we hear real strings we know for 100% they are real strings(leaving out the rare, rare, rare exceptions.) and there is a world of difference between the two.Having said that, sampled strings such as VSL sounds GREAT and is close enough to the real thing to occasionally fool people.

But again, I must be talking to myself....

Wow, isn't that true? When it's a real section you don't even think about it[;)]

TH

@Rob Elliott said:

I marvel at the ability and patience that the mock-up people here can do in this regard by key swtiching, CC sculpting, etc. to get so close to this result.

Rob

I agree wholeheartedly. Of course if my string lines sound too cr*p, I just cheat. [H]

DG


Come on DG - tell us what 'cheating' you do [[;)]]


Rob

@Rob Elliott said:

I marvel at the ability and patience that the mock-up people here can do in this regard by key swtiching, CC sculpting, etc. to get so close to this result.

Rob

I agree wholeheartedly. Of course if my string lines sound too cr*p, I just cheat. [H]

DG


Come on DG - tell us what 'cheating' you do [[;)]]


Rob
I get my Vile-Din out and multitrack a few times. Far quicker than programming....!

DG

_

Of course it's true that having 4 sampled dynamic levels is not the same as having the infinite number of dynamic levels and variations in timbre that are available from real performers and making samples sound realistic is a very time consuming art requiring the skilled use of every available parameter.

On the other hand, at least in my experience, it is possible to make a live orchestra sound like a poorly programmed sampled realization. For example, I attended a NY Philharmonic concert conducted by Zubin Mehta who favored the brass section above all others. At the concert during a passage in Brahms symphony, Mr. Mehta allowed one low tuba note (which the composer clearly intended to be a discreet foundation for the harmony) to so dominate the sound that, although the whole string section was playing furiously, you could barely hear them. When the late Erich Leinsdorf later came as a guest conductor he told the brass players that what they normally (under Mr, Mehta) considered P was his FFFF. Under Mr. Leinsdorf's direction, the orchestra sounded like an entirely different and infinitely more artful ensemble.

One of the things that, I think, makes Alex Temple's Wagner and Bruckner demos sound relatively natural is that the brass and woodwinds are not allowed to dominate and, as a result, he achieves a balanced sound.

To me, the limitations of current sampling technology - - or at least my limited abilities in using it - - are more drastically apparent in the solo strings (e.g playing as a string quartet) than in the orchestral strings.

Guy:

I don't think anyone meant to insult you in any way - - this is just a friendly discussion in which we express differing views. I hope you will continue to contribute your thoughts - - and demos. I visited your website and listened to the "Sadness of Sauron" which is, I think, beautifully and sensitively wrought.

@tom@aerovons.com said:

Wow, isn't that true? When it's a real section you don't even think about it[[;)]]

TH

Don't try too hard tom, although I appreciate it. For some strange reason people have decided to snub me and sadly mainly my demos, if there's a message I get it, and I'm not really feeling welcomed in this community anymore...


Man, guy - I wouldn't feel that way. What you are able to achieve in programming this terrific library - most of us (myself included) could only hope to replicate in our own commercial projects. Keep up the good work!!! [[[;)]]]


Rob

Guy,

Stop whining....that's my job [;)]

You rock baby!

SvK

Hey Guy:

I see that a couple of your posts have been erased, but please know one thing:

People may have their opinions about you, which is their right-- but that includes those who consider you somewhat of a pioneer and a hero-- who admire your work and still admire your work.

As with any creative artist, when you stick your neck out, someone will always try to chop it off. But please don't let that steal your thunder. You still generate a lot of respect around here.