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  4. Automatic Detuning on Demand?

  • Automatic Detuning on Demand?

    H
    H
    Listening to the new VSL demos, - Mussorgsky, Pictures... - i remarked, that the big unisono passages sound quite unrealistic; like a big Synth-Organ.
    The reason for this effect is the fact, that in bigger unisono passages in a real orchestra the tunings of the different players are far away from being similarly perfect as with samples, even within the best orchestras.
    Further, it seems, that the ear associates the fact of a certain "roughness" in the overall sounding to a "realistic" orchestral sound.

    thats why i think, it would be helpful for further versions of the VI-s, that there's a knob for a certain "detuned intonation", with an adjustable amount.
    It would be a great - and easy to control - feature, in my opinion!!!

    Greez:
    HTF
  • L
    L
    you can't, they were recorded in tune
  • H
    H
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    @Laurent said:

    you can't, they were recorded in tune


    Thats exactly _why_ i want to has this option. This algorithm would behave like a random detuner, which transposes the samples within the ranges (that means normally: some cents)
  • R
    R
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    @Laurent said:

    you can't, they were recorded in tune


    Thats exactly _why_ i want to has this option. This algorithm would behave like a random detuner, which transposes the samples within the ranges (that means normally: some cents)

    Happy Tree Friend (great name - do you get 'looks' when you sign checks? [[;)]] )

    I think you are on to something here. This would be a neat feature - could be worked into the player - perhaps similar to how RMX has a "CHOAS" feature - but in this case - random tunings would be made - + / - just a few cents.


    Rob
  • J
    J
    My way getting a detuned sound is to mix a solo instrument to an ensemble and detune this solo instrument slightly via pitch bend. That sounds good with the trumpets for example.
    Just listen to a few real orchestra pieces and try to imitade this!

    Probably you already use techniques like this, aren't you?
  • S
    S
    Well, I think HTF was referring to more then one orchestral section playing the same note - so that the sections are detuned to each other, right?

    Mit that might not be that easy - to have such a thing the VIs would need to communicate with each other - this is unusual for VSTis and even more when spread over several computers. (first to know when is unisono mode, second to determine the detune value for each instance - as computer's random functions are just faked.)

    This might have been easier with the old (sampler/perfTools based) approach.But the is something to it.

    best
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    @steff3 said:

    Well, I think HTF was referring to more then one orchestral section playing the same note - so that the sections are detuned to each other, right?

    Mit that might not be that easy - to have such a thing the VIs would need to communicate with each other - this is unusual for VSTis and even more when spread over several computers. (first to know when is unisono mode, second to determine the detune value for each instance - as computer's random functions are just faked.)



    Well, in a real orchestra the players also don't know, how the other ones will exactly intonate, that's why i think, a single random function should be sufficient.
    On the other hand, this option would naturally just work with solo instruments, i.e. sampled sections keep their tuning _inside_ of them.

    But the really critical instruments -that lead to that >synth organ< effect are often caused rather by woodwinds and brass.

    BTW:
    @Justus:
    in the EXS24 there is a random detune function, which is exactly what i'd like for the VI-s.
    An amount of +-8-10 cents works pretty well in big unisons.
  • C
    C
    I don't think any artificial intelligence would be required to do what HTF is asking. The user could simply turn the random detuning on and off as desired with a MIDI Control message - maybe they could also adjust the depth and frequency of the random detune feature.

    Tuning varies to some degree throughout the range of most instruments and no doubt these descrepencies are ironed out in post-production - shame we can't somehow opt for perfect or natural instrument tuning on the fly, but HTF's idea would be a reasonable compromise. It's these very subtelties and nuances that fool us into thinking the instrument playing is 'real' but conversely it can be infuriating if a patch consistently plays the same note out of tune in a small ensemble setting.

    Food for thought...

    Colin
  • J
    J
    Has anyone an idea how to achieve an automatic detuning in cubase / Halion Player?
    (The problem is, that for most instrument patches it isn't possible to use the pitch bend wheel)
  • L
    L
    I haven't tried this for instruments, but I have for doubling vocals.

    Auto-Tune 4 by Antares allows you to raise or lower the "target" pitch by a set number of cents +/-. If you used it as an audio insert on a given VI audio output it might allow you to slightly detune a section.

    If I get a chance I'll give it a try.

    --Leo Wolfe
  • DietzD
    VSL Team
    DietzD
    AutoTune doesn't work predictably with multi-voiced sources (read: ensembles). It might be worth a try with solo-instruments, eg. with just scales.
    /Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
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    @Dietz said:

    AutoTune doesn't work predictably with multi-voiced sources (read: ensembles). It might be worth a try with solo-instruments, eg. with just scales.


    Dietz,
    As i've just posted in another thread, what about a 'tape warmer' of some sort?

    Regards,

    Alex.
  • DietzD
    VSL Team
    DietzD
    Alex, I don't know exactly what you mean - a tape is no magical device, it just distorts! [6] ...or are you talking about wow and flutter, which obscure the pitch of a signal?
    /Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
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    @Dietz said:

    AutoTune doesn't work predictably with multi-voiced sources (read: ensembles). It might be worth a try with solo-instruments, eg. with just scales.



    I dont think that AutoTune (or a similar plugIn) is the right way for those manipulations.

    However, it would be a cool forthcoming update for the VIs, to have such a random detune button!

    Greez:
    HTF
  • N
    N
    In Kontakt2 there's a Humanizer script that lets one set the amount of random detuning in cents (together will random timing/velocity etc.).
  • J
    J
    Just insert a freeware pitchshifter (as the one on braindoc.de e.g.) into a channel and everything is fine (it can even be automated).