I think most people are missing the forest through the trees. While TJ's sounds are good (I should know as I was on that session team), It is his understanding of the instruments and how to get samples to phrase correctly that is key. Lets say for instance that TJ was given only VSL to use and you only had TJ's sounds, once TJ did his mockup you would be wanting VSL. That's not to say what we recorded isn't good, it is, but most people are looking at the samples as the problem, and there are enough tools here to do better work than you are currently doing. A knowledgeble composer and programmer can make the tools do what they want.

Not convinced?

check TJ's work on VSL,SAM's and EW....DO IT!. If you are positive you are writing this well, then you can take issue with the sounds, if not, do some soul searching and then figure out how to get to the next level. a new library will give instant gratification but after the wow factor wears off, you are still left with what you can do.

@Craig Sharmat said:

I think most people are missing the forest through the trees. While TJ's sounds are good (I should know as I was on that session team), It is his understanding of the instruments and how to get samples to phrase correctly that is key. Lets say for instance that TJ was given only VSL to use and you only had TJ's sounds, once TJ did his mockup you would be wanting VSL. That's not to say what we recorded isn't good, it is, but most people are looking at the samples as the problem, and there are enough tools here to do better work than you are currently doing. A knowledgeble composer and programmer can make the tools do what they want.

Not convinced?

check TJ's work on VSL,SAM's and EW....DO IT!. If you are positive you are writing this well, then you can take issue with the sounds, if not, do some soul searching and then figure out how to get to the next level. a new library will give instant gratification but after the wow factor wears off, you are still left with what you can do.

Frankly, I am not convinced [:D]

I have heard all these demos from TJ - many times - an none of them have this string sound - none of them. TJ - brilliantly writes to the library he is demo'ing. Craig - you know this better than anyone - we wrtie to the libraries (tools) we have. When we are being paid to wirte for a client we don't expose any of libraries weaknesses (we hide the worts, seams with every arranging, mixing tool we can think of, etc.).

What gets me excited about THIS demo is not the writing (although it is what you would expect to be produce by TJ). It is the TONE and expression that is so alive.

I want to be clear - I don't take issue with 'its not the wand but the witch' philosophy. I believe we all continually push for better arranging and orchestration skills. But there is just so much 'life' in these samples as demo'd.


Rob

I don't know who is more correct on this debate. The only way to resolve this would be to hear the same people do this same piece with VSL samples. However I tend to agree with Craig Sharmat in that the useage of samples is often the cause of either a good or bad sound. This demo is very short, and it is easier to do something short that sounds good than an entire symphony.

Nevertheless, on this demo the acoustic dynamic range is perfect, the musical dynamics are extremely well done, the writing is nicely contrapuntal (rather than homophonic - the worst way to write for strings) and the timbres of the original recordings seem to come across better in the mix than any other samples I've heard. And obviously if VSL does more string recordings it will be a great thing.

I know that I do not purposely write to the strengths of the library I am demoing. If a library was that restrictive I would not waste my time. I will cover up problems as I go along if they occur, or edit to make the library do what I want, and I believe Thomas does the same thing. Again, I write for myself, I figure that will also create the best demo. the music is first and 2nd, the library is just the vehicle.

All interesting comments. Someone over on NS asked TJ to post the MIDI file for the piece, wouldn't it be a great idea for someone to take the same composition and play it through i) VSL Pro, ii) VSL VI (when its out [[;)]] ) iii) EWQLSO and maybe even one or more of the other's.

It would be useful to do a "dry" run through and then finetune each piece to meet each libraries strenghts and cover its weaknesses. A lot of the realism seems also to be from the ambient hall the samples were recorded in.

Also, as I believe was mentioned on NS. these samples were recorded for a specific purpose/composition - the sampled stuff will not be generic enough to meet other needs. That I guess is the joy of a private library...

Guess we'll have to see if TJ posts that MIDI....

timkiel,

these samples were not made made for a composition. The midi file would be of some use but it would have to be tweaked for each lib and really the best person to do this would be TJ, and I know he couldn't be bothered. BTW most of the hall you hear was added in later.

I have to agree with Rob.

TJ's work doing demos in the other libraries is great, but doesn't sound like this "private collection."

TH (JMHO)

Personally I'm going with Craig on this one. All else being equal sample-wise in the end the tie breaker is going to be the writing and programming chops.

Guys, i own the same library, and yes it is a different sound, and it is good, but it is the smallest denominator. You can go looking for the holy grail, but the only real place to find it is within.

I'll drink to that.

Take the solo cello example.... thats not just writing chops. Thats an awesome full, warm and expressivesound.

@Rob Elliott said:

You worked with Thomas on Epic Horns and I bet those sales were through the roof!! Develop something like this or even better and it will simply be your biggest selling library to date.

Doesn't Thomas work for EW? If so, that could be a bit of a problem.

Lee Blaske

Hi Rob,

So is are these samples from the East West Sampled Orchestra?

Also, how do the Guitarrian Strings sound in your opinions......

-B

NO...he say 100% custom...... [[:|]]

@dunk187 said:

Hi Rob,

So is are these samples from the East West Sampled Orchestra?

Also, how do the Guitarrian Strings sound in your opinions......

-B

Yes - TJ said 100% custom PLUS his own K2 (scripting). Sounds like that pushed it over the top for Thomas. Sounds like that is the case BUT - take one note of the cello solo and section demos - and Oh that tone [[:|]] [:D]

I have K2 update on its way - time to become a 'tweak head' [:)]

Rob

@dunk187 said:

Hi Rob,

So is are these samples from the East West Sampled Orchestra?

Also, how do the Guitarrian Strings sound in your opinions......

-B

Yes - TJ said 100% custom PLUS his own K2 (scripting). Sounds like that pushed it over the top for Thomas.

Rob

100% custum ? could you tell us more ? did he record himself an entire string orchestra ? that would cost him a lot of money

All I know is taken from this thread


http://northernsounds.com/forum/showthread.php?p=370140#post370140


Rob

thanks Rob, the explanation is here
http://northernsounds.com/forum/showthread.php?t=41116&page=6

After intense listening to Thomas J's solo cello with the K2 script on NS I believe that I will need to rethink everything that I thought I knew about sampling and libraries.

Here's another vote for Thomas J.

I hear you Bruce. It does change the way we look at samples and just 'settling' for what is commercially available.

I am not a tweak head - but without this type of sound and control offered from the major developers I may just be motivated to become one.

I think the new VI is working towards this same objective - it is just (in Thomas' demos) the obvious absence of the typcial string sample 'sterile, brittle' sound that is so darn noticable in just about every demo available. I wish I could articulate what it is about this sound other than it is 'alive'.

Herb and co. - I can imagine you have watched this thread and the one on NS. Care to comment? Your impression of what Thomas has been able to achieve with the 'scripting', tone of his samples?

Many thanks.

Rob