I would also love to hear the results of a "blind" test concerning samples vs. live as Herb mentioned. I remember one guy came on this forum briefly, and absolutely SAVAGED the performance by Andy B of Debussy, which is still probably the high water mark of artistic sample performance yet accomplished, though Jay and Beat have given some stiff competition for that honor recently. So it was obvious this guy - I forgot his name - was prejudiced, pure and simple, against the samples.

That is a great response you got Jay, from an experienced violinist - the harshest critic one would expect of a sampled violin solo. Amazing that you could accomplish that actually. So I guess the bowings are not a problem? The reason I brought this up in the first place is that I often wonder it about my own things - if I am violating what could, or would actually be done. Now of course it has been discussed how samples need not simply imitate what is possible, but somehow I cannot stand making a "bowing mistake" in my own performances.

Anyway, it's a great sounding demo!

so like if the idea is that Jay's performance could have theoretically been performed live (minus a few tweaks here and there) this is truly amazing. It's not perfect but it sounds like a real living violin. I didn't wince once. The violinist wife of one of the posters had great comments with which I agree but that hardly undoes this breathing animal you've brought to life.

I think the reason I used to hate solo violin samples (VSL included) is that it takes so much time to pick the right articulations and string it all together, hardly anyone actually does it. So we end up hearing frankenstein performances all the time. This tool seems to optimize the value of all the different articulations and transitions and USE them where appropriate so we actually get to hear phrases.

I still like Synful tho! [6] But having all this realtime without artifacts is quite a leap forward.

signed,
a really crappy violinist

Sorry folks- until we have real time control over the vibrato depth and rate this instrument is going to sound a little cheezie. Or could I describe this sound as HAL 9000 trying to emulate a violin? Remember the Emulator? We're getting there - just haven't quite arrived.

I really do miss my Mellotron. [6]

@herb said:

Interesting would be an opinion, where the musician/violinist does not know that this was done with samples.
We've got interesting statements and harsh critics in the past (synthetic sounding, no one would play this like that, and so on) about real performed and recorded pieces, where we've said that it was done with samples. best Herb

Herb this is completely true in my experience.
Not only in a library listening test but in every kind of audio test imaginable.
I have hosted microphone shootouts, studio monitor blind listenting tests, Pro Tools vs. analog tape, '56 strat vs '96 strat etc etc.

Peoples biasis and certainly their eyes influence their opinions.

Jay's 4 minute solo violin demo is the most possibly exposed kind of demo any lib could do.
Compliments are due on both the violin VI and certainly Jay's effort.

Thanks Craig and Jay for the info about the demos.

Herb wrote:

@Another User said:

We've got interesting statements and harsh critics in the past (synthetic sounding, no one would play this like that, and so on) about real performed and recorded pieces, where we've said that it was done with samples.

[:D]
A well-known pruducer friend used to make sure he had an empty fader or 2 on his desk when doing a mix. When the guys from the ad agency would say, "I'd like a bit more saxophone" or "take the piano down a bit" he'd move these blank faders. In every case, this appeared to "improve" the mix, because the agency guys were always happier afterwards!!

The power of the mind...

Regards - Colin

@Another User said:

We've got interesting statements and harsh critics in the past (synthetic sounding, no one would play this like that, and so on) about real performed and recorded pieces, where we've said that it was done with samples.

[:D]
A well-known pruducer friend used to make sure he had an empty fader or 2 on his desk when doing a mix. When the guys from the ad agency would say, "I'd like a bit more saxophone" or "take the piano down a bit" he'd move these blank faders. In every case, this appeared to "improve" the mix, because the agency guys were always happier afterwards!!

The power of the mind...

Regards - Colin

LOL -Thats a great story! [H]

We use to call that "Placebo Buttons". [6]

@musos said:

A well-known pruducer friend used to make sure he had an empty fader or 2 on his desk when doing a mix.

Now that's a very common trick in the live sound business...especially when doing FOH in small places. [[;)]] Works every time when people starts to complain or giving you some great "constructive criticism" after a couple of beers...

/Mattias

@Another User said:

We've got interesting statements and harsh critics in the past (synthetic sounding, no one would play this like that, and so on) about real performed and recorded pieces, where we've said that it was done with samples.

[:D]
A well-known pruducer friend used to make sure he had an empty fader or 2 on his desk when doing a mix. When the guys from the ad agency would say, "I'd like a bit more saxophone" or "take the piano down a bit" he'd move these blank faders. In every case, this appeared to "improve" the mix, because the agency guys were always happier afterwards!!

The power of the mind...

Regards - Colin


Great idea - I think I will have to use this one [:P]

Could it be possible to have a live solo violin demo with the Schindler's List and Danse Macabre ? (without orchestra)

[[;)]]

Wow; I go away for a couple of weeks and WW III breaks out [[:|]]

DG

@musos said:

A well-known pruducer friend used to make sure he had an empty fader or 2 on his desk when doing a mix. When the guys from the ad agency would say, "I'd like a bit more saxophone" or "take the piano down a bit" he'd move these blank faders. In every case, this appeared to "improve" the mix, because the agency guys were always happier afterwards!!

An amusing story, but certainly the mark of a very unprofessional producer. It really shows has a lack of respect, if not downright contempt for the people hiring him (i.e. he knows best, and the people employing him are idiots). Most likely, he won't last much longer in the biz. If his clients don't eventually discover what he's been doing and fire him, he'll most likely move on to some other career of his own volition. The people I've met with attitudes like this are very burned out with what they're doing, and need to get into a different line of work.

Lee Blaske

To Lee,

Please note that this story was meant to illustrate "perceived changes" when there were none. Don't imagine for a second that this person performed this trick all the time! Obviously, when his clients had valid and/or constructive input, he made real changes. This story related to getting seriously frustrated with clients who basically didn't have a clue. (These are known to exist....)

Oh, and this took place around 15 years ago, and this person is still very much in business. No need to assume that the mute faders were indicative of a prevailing attitude of any kind. More than likely, it is his clients who are now out of business.... [:D]

Regards - Colin

Its all a matter of opinion.

I used to try my best to be the sharpest and fittest regarding thechnique, and imagine if I just could keep myself pumped up for this whole phraze, I could just about sound like a perfect machine and do this phraze justice and stand out from others. That was before computers and sequencers. Times have changed.
know, that one can sound that way. Its the wrong thing to do.
I still think that 3 or 4 up bow in a row on the violins sound like the music realy calls for that, a human can't duplicate.

Don't forget the music !!

Best

Hi J.. I just listned again and I must say how impressed I am. Very nice job by both you and of course VSL [:)]

The first thing I'll be doing once I have the Cube will be to try your midifile. I was wondering if you could share the Matrices you have used (if custom) or tell us which to load up...

Thanks

Hi Christian,


Thanks for your kind words.

I just finished the fully orchestrated version of Massenet's Meditation. Hopefully Herb will be able to post it next week. When he does I will make the matrices that I used available.

Revisting the solo for the orchestrated version, I realized that once again William and Beat were right about too many slides on one bow. Real violinists were indeed sliding where I had used slides but in many cases they were sliding AND changing bow direction at the same time. There are 4 patches currently that offer slides of one sort or another (sul, porta, zigane and glissando). They are all VERY useful but they are all with one bow direction. I would love to have one more...a slide with a bow change-- a combination performance detache-zigane. Maybe Herb will put that on his ever growing list of samples to be recorded. [:)]

Bottom line, in the new version I removed some of the slides. Still a compromise, but perhaps a bit more tasteful.

Best,
Jay

Alright, thanks [:)]

The rest done with the VI or Pro Ed?

Hi Christian,

I've only gotten to play around with the new VI solo violin. I'm as eager as you to get my hands on the rest of the new goodies! [:)] Hopefully soon.

Best,
Jay

I doubt your AS eager [:D] But close maybe... I'm dying to try out the solo violin. I most likely wont be using VI all that much for real work until I have all 5 collections, and can set it up right. But that gives me time to learn its functions, and decide what matrices to create.

ARG! I hope Bestservice send them this monday - that would mean wednesday here in little Denmark [:)]

@JBacal said:

Revisting the solo for the orchestrated version, I realized that once again William and Beat were right about too many slides on one bow. Real violinists were indeed sliding where I had used slides but in many cases they were sliding AND changing bow direction at the same time. There are 4 patches currently that offer slides of one sort or another (sul, porta, zigane and glissando). They are all VERY useful but they are all with one bow direction. I would love to have one more...a slide with a bow change-- a combination performance detache-zigane. Maybe Herb will put that on his ever growing list of samples to be recorded. [:)]

Bottom line, in the new version I removed some of the slides. Still a compromise, but perhaps a bit more tasteful.

Best,
Jay

Jay, Violin portamento is a very complicated subject, and while you are correct that slides are sometimes performed with a change of bow, there are two added complications:

1) More often than not, the slide doesn't actually connect the two notes, it often just slides from the start note up (or down) a little, or from a little under the top note (known as the French overslide or the Russian underslide).

2) This brings me to the second point. In the case of the French overslide, the position change is done at the end of the preceding note, thereby being included in the same bow. The Russian underslide is done at the start of the succeeding note, thereby being included in the next bow (and played slightly early so that the top note arrives on the beat).

Therefore with the current samples you have to know three things in order to do portamento with a change of bow:

1) French or Russian
2) What interval the actual slide is
3) What strings the two notes are to be played on.

Each of these points has a direct bearing on the other ones. All of this is possible to fake, but even with VI I still think that it will probably need 2 tracks to do successfully.

DG