We use to call that "Placebo Buttons". [6]

@musos said:

A well-known pruducer friend used to make sure he had an empty fader or 2 on his desk when doing a mix.

Now that's a very common trick in the live sound business...especially when doing FOH in small places. [[;)]] Works every time when people starts to complain or giving you some great "constructive criticism" after a couple of beers...

/Mattias

@Another User said:

We've got interesting statements and harsh critics in the past (synthetic sounding, no one would play this like that, and so on) about real performed and recorded pieces, where we've said that it was done with samples.

[:D]
A well-known pruducer friend used to make sure he had an empty fader or 2 on his desk when doing a mix. When the guys from the ad agency would say, "I'd like a bit more saxophone" or "take the piano down a bit" he'd move these blank faders. In every case, this appeared to "improve" the mix, because the agency guys were always happier afterwards!!

The power of the mind...

Regards - Colin


Great idea - I think I will have to use this one [:P]

Could it be possible to have a live solo violin demo with the Schindler's List and Danse Macabre ? (without orchestra)

[[;)]]

Wow; I go away for a couple of weeks and WW III breaks out [[:|]]

DG

@musos said:

A well-known pruducer friend used to make sure he had an empty fader or 2 on his desk when doing a mix. When the guys from the ad agency would say, "I'd like a bit more saxophone" or "take the piano down a bit" he'd move these blank faders. In every case, this appeared to "improve" the mix, because the agency guys were always happier afterwards!!

An amusing story, but certainly the mark of a very unprofessional producer. It really shows has a lack of respect, if not downright contempt for the people hiring him (i.e. he knows best, and the people employing him are idiots). Most likely, he won't last much longer in the biz. If his clients don't eventually discover what he's been doing and fire him, he'll most likely move on to some other career of his own volition. The people I've met with attitudes like this are very burned out with what they're doing, and need to get into a different line of work.

Lee Blaske

To Lee,

Please note that this story was meant to illustrate "perceived changes" when there were none. Don't imagine for a second that this person performed this trick all the time! Obviously, when his clients had valid and/or constructive input, he made real changes. This story related to getting seriously frustrated with clients who basically didn't have a clue. (These are known to exist....)

Oh, and this took place around 15 years ago, and this person is still very much in business. No need to assume that the mute faders were indicative of a prevailing attitude of any kind. More than likely, it is his clients who are now out of business.... [:D]

Regards - Colin

Its all a matter of opinion.

I used to try my best to be the sharpest and fittest regarding thechnique, and imagine if I just could keep myself pumped up for this whole phraze, I could just about sound like a perfect machine and do this phraze justice and stand out from others. That was before computers and sequencers. Times have changed.
know, that one can sound that way. Its the wrong thing to do.
I still think that 3 or 4 up bow in a row on the violins sound like the music realy calls for that, a human can't duplicate.

Don't forget the music !!

Best

Hi J.. I just listned again and I must say how impressed I am. Very nice job by both you and of course VSL [:)]

The first thing I'll be doing once I have the Cube will be to try your midifile. I was wondering if you could share the Matrices you have used (if custom) or tell us which to load up...

Thanks

Hi Christian,


Thanks for your kind words.

I just finished the fully orchestrated version of Massenet's Meditation. Hopefully Herb will be able to post it next week. When he does I will make the matrices that I used available.

Revisting the solo for the orchestrated version, I realized that once again William and Beat were right about too many slides on one bow. Real violinists were indeed sliding where I had used slides but in many cases they were sliding AND changing bow direction at the same time. There are 4 patches currently that offer slides of one sort or another (sul, porta, zigane and glissando). They are all VERY useful but they are all with one bow direction. I would love to have one more...a slide with a bow change-- a combination performance detache-zigane. Maybe Herb will put that on his ever growing list of samples to be recorded. [:)]

Bottom line, in the new version I removed some of the slides. Still a compromise, but perhaps a bit more tasteful.

Best,
Jay

Alright, thanks [:)]

The rest done with the VI or Pro Ed?

Hi Christian,

I've only gotten to play around with the new VI solo violin. I'm as eager as you to get my hands on the rest of the new goodies! [:)] Hopefully soon.

Best,
Jay

I doubt your AS eager [:D] But close maybe... I'm dying to try out the solo violin. I most likely wont be using VI all that much for real work until I have all 5 collections, and can set it up right. But that gives me time to learn its functions, and decide what matrices to create.

ARG! I hope Bestservice send them this monday - that would mean wednesday here in little Denmark [:)]

@JBacal said:

Revisting the solo for the orchestrated version, I realized that once again William and Beat were right about too many slides on one bow. Real violinists were indeed sliding where I had used slides but in many cases they were sliding AND changing bow direction at the same time. There are 4 patches currently that offer slides of one sort or another (sul, porta, zigane and glissando). They are all VERY useful but they are all with one bow direction. I would love to have one more...a slide with a bow change-- a combination performance detache-zigane. Maybe Herb will put that on his ever growing list of samples to be recorded. [:)]

Bottom line, in the new version I removed some of the slides. Still a compromise, but perhaps a bit more tasteful.

Best,
Jay

Jay, Violin portamento is a very complicated subject, and while you are correct that slides are sometimes performed with a change of bow, there are two added complications:

1) More often than not, the slide doesn't actually connect the two notes, it often just slides from the start note up (or down) a little, or from a little under the top note (known as the French overslide or the Russian underslide).

2) This brings me to the second point. In the case of the French overslide, the position change is done at the end of the preceding note, thereby being included in the same bow. The Russian underslide is done at the start of the succeeding note, thereby being included in the next bow (and played slightly early so that the top note arrives on the beat).

Therefore with the current samples you have to know three things in order to do portamento with a change of bow:

1) French or Russian
2) What interval the actual slide is
3) What strings the two notes are to be played on.

Each of these points has a direct bearing on the other ones. All of this is possible to fake, but even with VI I still think that it will probably need 2 tracks to do successfully.

DG

DG-- The one I hear most often is a little scoop up to pitch at the start of the bow change. It seems to put a little extra emotion-- "a cry"-- into the note. Is this the Russian?

Do you think you can "fake" the Russian or French with the existing articulations? If so, could you post a quick example. Perhaps it can be done with subtle pitch bends. But pitch bends almost never sound right to me.

Thanks for the additional info. Looks like Herb has a lot more recording to do than I originally thought. [:D]

Best,
Jay

There should be options to get a bowchange before a slide:
the repetition notes included into the zigane and portamento patches. Performing a very short repetition before sliding up/down, should give you the right impression of a "bowchanged portamento".

best
Herb

@JBacal said:

DG-- The one I hear most often is a little scoop up to pitch at the start of the bow change. It seems to put a little extra emotion-- "a cry"-- into the note. Is this the Russian?

Do you think you can "fake" the Russian or French with the existing articulations? If so, could you post a quick example. Perhaps it can be done with subtle pitch bends. But pitch bends almost never sound right to me.

Thanks for the additional info. Looks like Herb has a lot more recording to do than I originally thought. [:D]

Best,
Jay

Yes, the little scoop is the Russian. You can fake either, but you have to be careful with the French, as it only exists because of string technique. There is no equivalent in singing, which is often a reason not to do something [:D]

I'll try to post a little demo of both sorts of portamento tomorrow if I get a chance.

I look forward to hearing the new samples if the SC ever arrives [8-)]

DG

@herb said:

Performing a very short repetition before sliding up/down, should give you the right impression of a "bowchanged portamento".

Thanks, Herb. I'll have to try that.

Best,
Jay

Christian-- here is the midi file for the Massenet Meditation (fully orchestrated version). Also in the zip file you will find the bank and preset files for the VSL VI solo violin.

www.Members.aol.com/jbacal/Meditation.zip

Best,
Jay

The point concerning portamento is that it is as variable as taste, but at the same time conditioned by what is possible. It is often impossible to do a full slide, so players will "fake" such a thing if the conductor or score demands it, with a partial slide to the next fingering change. However, the danger with samples (as far as realistic presentation goes which is not very far with me as I don't really care) is that the sampled portamento is recorded in isolation, and allows far more sliding than would be possible in a normal musical context.

This brings up something that I think is of crucial importance, but always ignored. The "purity" of sampled sounds. A line played live is extremely impure - not as everyone immediately is thinking in mere intonation - but also in dynamic level, style, portamento, legato, staccato, etc. etc. etc. Any number of expressive elements. There is variation at all times in any live orchestral performance. But with samples, everything is "pure" - especially with extremely detailed and perfectly recorded samples like VSL. For example, go to ff espressivo violins. Every single note is exactly that. But if you listen to any live played line of music, only a few will be that way, even though the score says "ff espress." And this applies to ALL ASPECTS of expression. So anyway, the point I was thinking about is how crucial it is to totally mess up the "purity" of ANY aspect of MIDI you are using in order to get a natural sounding performance. And this is something everyone resists, because of natural or trained musicianship.