Between a rock and Hard Place with Logic 10.7.4 and VSL on Apple silicon - what's next??

[jeff_5479]

I know there is a huge long thread about Apple Silicon but I want to try and focus on one important use case here for advice and ideas from other Logic Users.  1st off - we know until Apple Silcon compatible VSL server and plugs are done, our wonderful new hardware purchases are bricked for our past templates and workflow.

This isn't just a VSL problem -  Apple re-wrote/coded a lot of their MIDI engine starting with Logic 10.7 - in Intel, the OLD version of the Multi Port (Logic environment macros) solution plus the regular AU plug in does NOT work with Logic 10.7 - stuck notes galore on Intel - for 2 years now!   i did some rebuilding to AU3 on one project, and for the most port MIDI behaves as expected with multi ports working on Intel. 

Ironically - the only plug that DOES work on apple silicon in Rosetta is the original AU version (the one that doesn't work with Logic 10.7!)  - the AU3 version won't even load.  And as we all know in either case Apple Silicon has broken the Multi - port connections to Logic (both Logic 10.6.3 and upwards)  so, again there is no solution.

Ironically - AU3 which we would assume to be an "improvement" or evolution in terms of playing nice with Logic (as it does on Intel and Logic 10.7.4 - AU3 plug does NOT pass MIDI clock to VEP -any templates with tempo synced instruments are useless (Omnisphere, RMX, any Kontakt loops etc.) - this is especially insane - why on Earth was MIDI clock left out of the AU3 spec?  Is this an AU3 spec issue or a Logic or VEPro issue?

So a few questions for you all

1) have we come to the end of life for VEPro server, in combination with Apple Silicon and Logic 10.7.4 and upwards? 

2) are there any native Apple Silicon hosts which can pass MIDI clock and Multi - Port MIDI back to Logic?  I've seen several "Lists" online of VEP7 alternatives but haven't had the time to test any on Apple Silicon with 10.7.4.....

and finally

3) Suppose we run Logic Pro 10.6.3 (Rosetta) on our apple silicon and use the Old VE pro plug in - has anyone found a method for sending more than 16 MIDI channels (i.e. port 1 only) to VEP7 server?  I saw some "newer" multiport macros on another VSL thread somewhere and tried them - but these all still seemed broken for multi-port with Apple silicon..  Even if such a fix exists, it seems very sub-optimal - both rosetta logic AND Rosetta VEP7

I really appreciate the VSL team - they built an amazing piece of hosting & production software that has served me for years - I hope they can pull the rabbit out of the hat, but like the rest here - it feels pretty messed up right now for us pro end users.... I also realize this software probably isn't their biggest revenue generator (vs. sounds and other things)

 It's an ugly catch 22 - stay with a Rosetta logic to (someday) use VEP when it's Apple Silicon native and working or... go to Apple Silicon native and find / rebuild a MIDI template solution that is properly coded for MIDI stability, and MIDI clock transmission..... 

Thanks for any info or ideas you all can contribute here - The thought of rebuilding a complete and very complex palette is daunting, but that might be the reality if the software doesn't catch up - Pretty soon apple won't even SELL any hardware that isn't Apple Silicon - for very good reason - it's a huge leap in performance and power for for mobile and desktop - plus finless server &the laptop performance.... 

Jeff Beal 

composer

[evang42]

Hi Jeff, I doubt very much you want to look into switching DAWs at this stage but for what it's worth, VEP7's multiport MAS plugin is working fairly well for me with DP11 (in rosetta mode)..  As long as I launch DP11 in rosetta, VEP's MAS plugin shows up and it will successfully load all my past templates, all with multiple midi ports (I use 18 midi ports per instance, each with 16 channels).  Cheers, Evan Goldman.  Still, I'm counting the days til VSL releases apple silicon native VEP!!!

[Dewdman42]

This is part of why I'm still using my Intel Mac for another year or two.

@Another User said:

Thanks for any info or ideas you all can contribute here - The thought of rebuilding a complete and very complex palette is daunting, but that might be the reality if the software doesn't catch up - Pretty soon apple won't even SELL any hardware that isn't Apple Silicon - for very good reason - it's a huge leap in performance and power for for mobile and desktop - plus finless server &the laptop performance....

Apple is still selling Intel Macs and they will be discontinued pretty soon its true, but Apple will have to support them for at least 5 more years after that.  I personally think its too soon to buy an Apple Silicon mac if you are doing production audio.  There are still way too many things that require rosetta, which is not foolproof and you are just adding even more complexity to your system.  Another year maybe, there will be more software fully native Apple Silicon and things will be smoother.  Until then, you are an early adopter in terms of audio production, that is just the simple truth. 

lastly, if you really want multi port midi with your mac, LogicPro has never been a great solution compared to Cubase and DP, both of which support it easily.  As does StudioOne too.  It can be done on Logic using tricky means, but as you are finding, those means are falling apart now.  VSL always labled AU3 as "beta", and never upgraded that status since then.  That means if it stops working, its on you for relying on "beta" software.  Its really hard to say whether VePro.AU3 could be made to work better now or whether LogicPro itself still has some problems with AU3 as a host.  There are really hardly any other actual AU3 plugins being sold by anyone anywhere to run inside LogicPro, so Apple hasn't exactly had a landslide of complaints about it not working right. 

There are definitely a few things in LogicPro today that don't completely work right with Au3, for example, if you save Patches, not all the port info is saved in the patch correctly, etc..  There are a few things that have come out over time, I can't remember the list now.  So anyway, trying to do multi-port midi on LogicPro is simply something we can't depend on today in 2022. 

[Michael Canavan]

@Dewdman42 said:

lastly, if you really want multi port midi with your mac, LogicPro has never been a great solution compared to Cubase and DP, both of which support it easily.  As does StudioOne too.  It can be done on Logic using tricky means, but as you are finding, those means are falling apart now.  VSL always labled AU3 as "beta", and never upgraded that status since then.  That means if it stops working, its on you for relying on "beta" software.  Its really hard to say whether VePro.AU3 could be made to work better now or whether LogicPro itself still has some problems with AU3 as a host.  There are really hardly any other actual AU3 plugins being sold by anyone anywhere to run inside LogicPro, so Apple hasn't exactly had a landslide of complaints about it not working right. 

There are definitely a few things in LogicPro today that don't completely work right with Au3, for example, if you save Patches, not all the port info is saved in the patch correctly, etc..  There are a few things that have come out over time, I can't remember the list now.  So anyway, trying to do multi-port midi on LogicPro is simply something we can't depend on today in 2022.

Now that you've come to DP and all, have you checked out Logic's multi port MIDI In update in the last year or so? I haven't stressed it since Logic is not my main DAW, but you can now by track, choose not just the channel but the port. I've been thinking this whole thread that it might be that his Environment for multi port MIDI in Logic is conflicting with Logics new Multi MIDI in port capability?

Seems like it's worth a try, and if it doesn't then DP or bust! 

[Dewdman42]

@Michael Canavan said:

Now that you've come to DP and all, have you checked out Logic's multi port MIDI In update in the last year or so? I haven't stressed it since Logic is not my main DAW, but you can now by track, choose not just the channel but the port. I've been thinking this whole thread that it might be that his Environment for multi port MIDI in Logic is conflicting with Logics new Multi MIDI in port capability?

What you are speaking of is when using an AU3 plugin such as VePro's.  The OP is having problems with that particular plugin on Apple Silicon in rosetta mode.  That rules it out.  But generally, I agree, that is the best way currently to attempt doing multi port midi in LogicPro.

alternatively there are older environment based solutions that can work with the AU2 version of the plugin, but the environment has been getting more and more bugs in recent updates to logicPro, so honestly I don't reccommend that either, and even when it mostly worked correctly, it still sometimes didn't.

[/quote]

[Helmholtz]

Jeff. You've not made it clear if you're reporting problems you've had while using your own ARM computer(s), or just commenting on reports and comments posted in various forums. Would you kindly clarify.

Re your main complaint about MIDI Clock not working when using Logic and VEP (AU3) on an Intel processor: it works for me (on macOS 12.6, latest Logic and VEP). Just now I've tested it using various VI Pro (latest) instruments with factory preset internal sequences, and also using some of (latest) Kontakt's sequenced drum loops in the Factory Library. In both cases Logic can start and stop sequence playback in these instruments in VEP, either triggered live from a MIDI keyboard or from a programmed MIDI region. Also these sequences change playback speed in real time in response to tempo changes I make in logic. Perhaps there are other built-in sequencers in other instruments that won't sync with Logic's timing  via VEP - would you specify actual examples you've encountered?

You haven't said which particular AU2 VEP multi-port workaround gave rise to the many hanging notes you speak of. Of the two workaround designs I know about, one from VSL and one from a third party, neither is a faultless solution, as proved by some stress-testing reported by a member of this forum. Nor can there be a perfect solution constructed for VEP AU2 in Logic's Environment (I can back up this assertion with digital realtime comms theory if you're interested). Those stress tests showed that the 3rd party workaround (provided by Dewdman42) is far MORE prone to the hanging notes problem than the factory workaround. Actually I don't believe there can be a less error-prone workaround than VSL's ultimately simple one. In the past I've used VSL's AU2 workaround without encountering the "stuck notes galore" problem you've reported; which might be because I kept the port count per VEP instance low, as recommened by VSL.

I certainly agree that setting up a large and complex template for VEP (AU3) with Logic is a lot of work, but I'm currently getting good results with mine - in between Logic crashes!

I'll have a bet with anyone who'll stake $1000, that we have NOT come to the end of life of the VEP server for Logic and VEP running on ARM processors.

I'll just add this: it's worth being VERY cautious, Jeff, about claims made in various forums about this or that problem or about tricks for solving or getting around them. Unfortunately for the majority of us, there are a few individuals out there whose craving for attention, adulation and validation on social media far outweighs their abilities to provide useful and reliable information, and who have little or no conscience about that. In my experience this particular forum is generally one of the very best, in that the vast majority of members who post here clearly value truth, honesty and integrity very highly and are able to communicate perfectly well, no matter how short on technical knowledge or expertise they may be in some particular topic.

[jeff_5479]

Heimlotz - all of these are direct observations on my own Intel and Apple silicon - newly purchased M1Max laptop and my previous i9 systems -

I realize my post might have seemed hyperbolic in terms of how bad / dysfunctional it is, but MIDI clock (or MIDI host sync- thanks for the clarification) is not being passed from Logic on the AU3 plugin to VEP SERVER system on Intel - That is the case in my tests and is very well documented in other threads by other users here.  

I'll report to the Logic team the issue with Midi host sync and see if they can address it on their end - that makes more sense.  I'm not trying to lay blame - but there are problems with both VEP and Logic in their latest incarnations (on the logic side) - I do all of my film score orchestration in logic so I"m' loathe to switch over to Cuebase or DP - Many users have seen the same stuck note problems with large complex templates with many ports when migrating from 10.6.3 and AU to 10.7.4 to AU3 (the only stable solution on 10.7.4 intel is AU3)

For the record I'm a very well known composer - 5 time Emmy winner for House of Cards and others - so you can take what I'm saying and the severity of it with that grain of salt fwiw. 

Just my opinion, but Intel Mac is really end of life in terms of performance for me - and fan noise etc., as I use mostly 2 intel i9s MBP16s with 64 gb ram each  for my studio and plug them in wherever I"m working at the time - the quiet factor on fans and the crazy leap in performance on apple silicon is enticing and - sadly, perhaps a harbinger...

Currently I'm using my new MacBook M1Max as a test experimental unit while I wait for the software to catchup.  Other pro users scoring big films and TV shows have told me of the quantum leap in performance they are seeing so it seems crazy not to hop on the Apple Silicon train.  Keeping hope alive for the Apple Silicon native VEP8...

Jeff Beal 

PS - one clarification that might be useful if you are only DP - Logic 10.7 runs native on apple silicon - 10.6.3 (the more stable with VEP7 on both Intel and M1) runs in rosetta - of course the goal is to run everything native to the underlying chip architecture with the least rosetta use as possible.  

[Helmholtz]

Jeff, thanks for the response. I hope you don't think my caution at the end of my post above was aimed at blaming you - it certainly wasn't (I've now added a small edit to rectify). We currently have a problem here with one particular member who's also busy spreading his bluff and nonsense in other forums too; no names, no pack drill. My comment was hoping to help you see the benefit of a bit of caution and skepticism (well, quite a lot of caution and skepticism these days) in casting around to find help with your horrible (and no doubt costly) current problems with your pro composer's rig. Of course I can understand your frustration.

Odd that I can't reproduce your missing MIDI clock problem on my iMac; a key difference might be that I'm not piping it out to a slave system, only to a local host VEP server. Maybe a detailed report to VSL's Support might bear more fruit than a bug report to Apple. And whilst Logic 10.6.3 may be ok for some, when I get absolutely sick and tired of the unreliability and weirdnesses of today's Logic, I still have Logic 10.4.8 which, relatively, is a haven of peace and order. Hell's teeth, I remember when I could depend on Emagic's Logic almost as if it was a scientific instrument!

Anyway, best of luck getting through this current sh**storm of techie stuff.

[pford]

Dewd's suggestion to run Logic Native and use the AU2 VEP plugin with its one port limitation is the most stable/least frustrating scenario for right now. At least, thats what I found on my M1Max MBP16.

I run ~12 seperate instances (running the VEP server on the same machine) with a Cinematic Series based orchestra with 2 mic positions open per instrument. Eats up about 45 gigs of RAM. I rarely have processor overloads at a 256 buffer and tempo sync works fine. Many instances of Fabfilter EQ3, a few Cinematic Rooms and one stereo return back to Logic per instance...so YMMV depending on the specifics of your template.

I suppose that's not helpful if you already have a complex template using multiple ports and minimum instances, but I've gotten used to this workflow for the past few years and am not confident that even with VEP getting AS native support the multi port issues with Logic will still be sorted. Here's hoping!

[Macker]

pford, of course that's right, the bleeding obvious option of running Logic with VEP AU2 without any multiport workaround can't be beaten in terms of reliability - just so long as 1 port per instance provides adequate capacity and convenience for one's template.

But for the pro who wrote the OP, things are not so simple. He was commenting specifically on the issue of multiport operation.

So, whilst my stress tests have established that dewdman's snake oil modification of VSL's original AU2 multiport workaround is hopeless for reliability in comparison to VSL's simple design, there is actually no possible AU2 workaround at all for use in Logic's Environment that can guarantee port-addressing reliability in typically heavy realtime usage. The dreaded hanging notes syndrome with the AU2 workaround is the result of a Note On and its Note Off being delivered to different ports when, in fast and furious realtime MIDI traffic, the port-address message becomes separated from its proper port data by intervening traffic from elsewhere. Nothing can be done in Logic's Environment to ensure that port address and port data stick together under all conditions - the Environment simply isn't built that way.

The least error-prone AU2 workaround is VSL's original one, but it should be used with a low number of ports per instance - as recommended by VSL - to reduce the probability of port message separation errors in realtime. In my stress tests, dewdman's AU2 workaround produces plenty of errors even when configured for 2 ports per instance - so to call it snake oil is probably too kind. Don't be tempted by the snake oil salesman - it's simply not fit for purpose.

If reports are correct about VEP AU3 not working at all in ARM/Rosetta, then those of us with large Logic templates are basically f****d in terms of buying ARM Macs and expecting to use VEP. That is .... unless we put up with the low port-per-instance limitation and use the VSL AU2 workaround, at least until ARM-native VEP is released. And judging by VSL's quietness recently, my guess is that there's some serious testing of something new and important going on right now ...... hopefully, ARM-native and VST3 compatible VEP 8. (Well hey, I can dream!)

Oh, and for those who expect a new Mac Studio (using Logic or Cubase), to be a dream come true, check out this video by pro composer and educator Guy Michelmore, posted on YT about a month ago:-

Mac Studio for Music - First Impressions

[Dewdman42]

First of all, no macker is lying to you all. The original multiport templates created by vsl DO NOT WORK. This is well documented in this forum by multiple people. This is not VSL’s fault, it was due to a bug in logicpro’s environment tranforms which resulted in many hung and dropped notes. Several years ago, before vepro7; I tackled the problem and figured out a work around in the environment to get around the noteoff problem, it was not snake oil. I did not do this for any personal gain. I did it only to help anyone that might be affected and to figure it out for myself and share the result. I don’t really know who macker is it why he is obsessed with attacking me endlessly, but he is not telling the truth now; if you are trying to use those old vepro6 multiport transforms you should NOT use the original ones from VSL; they never worked right. Period. Apple’s fault not VSL’s, but in my opinion VSL should have removed them from their site a long time ago or better yet they should have grabbed the version I did and shared that one instead!!! That being said, though improved, there were still problematic situations that were not fixable due to design of logicpro, as well as even more bugs that have slipped into logicpro’s environment since then. Ever since vepro7 came out with the AU3 beta support, which has been several years already; I have advised everyone to use that instead of the old multiport macros. And that is still what I advise, except now apparently that does not work under Rosetta, so silicon mac users should either avoid using multiport for now or they can attempt to use my old multiport macro templates, but make no mistake they should NOT use the older original templates from VSL; and I can’t promise that now in 2022 even my templates will work due to new bugs in logicpro, but I can promise the older original ones will definitely not work right either. It’s exhausting to have to defend myself from macker and his other avatar hermholz. Why does vsl allow this kind of antagonistic behavior? It’s very offensive to me and had going on for months now. It’s a very sad reflection on vsl as a company that they will allow such offensive behavior on their moderated forum.

[christerdk]

Apologies for bringing this thread back, but I'm experiencing hanging notes a lot with Synchron Player / Elite Strings right now on a fairly new and vanilla setup (mac, Logic 10.6.1 => Windows, VEP7). I haven't experienced it with Kontakt-based instances.

Above you refer to some solution, but it's not quite clear to me what they are - especially VSL simple solution design. A keyword to chase or a link would be appreciated.

Thanks!