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[...] I would be very interested to hear what Dietz would have to say about any of this.
This is my personal opinion as a sound engineer and music producer, not an "official" VSL statement: Synchron Instruments were made to be used in situ, in the specific positions in that very specific hall where they were recorded. For free placement on a virtual stage use Vienna Instruments.
Stillkeenly anticipatingyour own elucidations of your remarks, dewdman.I have already stated that I have no experience trying any of these things with synchron, and i am certainly not an “authority” about it. I was just throwing out some ideas to try along with the rest of you. I tend to agree with Dietz here about how synchron libraries should be used On their own without messing with their placement. I have always felt that way about synchron which is why I am fully invested in VI and synchronized instruments and I’m still just experimenting with a few synchron libraries. I do feel there is some magic captured in some of synchron instruments such as synchron brass which I don’t have yet, and Elute strings which I do have But have not had a chance to do much with. My eventual goal will be to have the entire synchron series and use together as a cohesive sound, as an alternative to the VI sound if and when synchron hall is what I’m after. But I still have years of playing around to do with the VI series ahead of me and up until now I have been focusing on using that together with mirpro to achieve many wonderful and flexible results. That is definitely why I chose a couple of years ago to go all-in on vi series and mirpro. Synchron series is a different approach, and in some ways an easier and immediate sonic result with less mixing fussing around in Mirpro, etc… and eventually I am sure I will utilize that on its own that way too, but I feel that mixing synchron series with mirpro is not really the way to go other then perhaps using mirpro and synchron hall to blend in vi series Instruments with synchron series as is. But that is future project for me as I am not fully invested in synchron series yet. I only meant to throw out experimental suggestions regarding distance since Paolo asked and seems interested to experiment.
dewdman, I notice you still haven't elucidated on any of your advice which appears to have been aimed at helping Paolo with his specific objectives as stated in his thread here. So do you stand by your advice or withdraw it? If the former, that would leave a bit of a mess to be cleared up, sorting the wheat from the chaff as well as the outright nonsense; but someone else will have to take care of that, right?
I notice also you've gone way off topic.
I do hope, for Paolo's sake and for others who might be interested in what Paolo is trying to achieve here, that this thread can now proceed without being sidetracked any further.
dewdman your answer means the advice you gave to Paolo no longer stands. Good. Now perhaps this thread might proceed without you sidetraacking it any further.
In general, if you go back and change one of your previous posts to contain new information, I will probably not go back to read it. Its one thing to update a previous post to fix grammar or spelling mistakes, but if you change what you said, or add to what you said...its already history and I do not make a habit of going back to re-read the threads over and over to find whatever new questions you have placed in an old post.
I see now that you have added some specific questions to an older post...so I will try to address some of them.
There is no effort on my part to side track or derail this thread at all.. Nor have I said anything off topic. Your questions seem to have a combative tone towards me, so I may pick and choose what I will respond to in that case.
You say, "And there is always just using EQ to make things seem further away." What principle does this involve, and how does that principle translate into making actual EQ settings to affect distance? Please elucidate.
Frequency content changes over distance differently across the spectrum. That is what I meant by "proximity effect" earlier. By the same virtue, you can use EQ to change the spectrum, which can have an impact on perceived distance. Here is a video on you tube I just quickly googled for and you can find many more on this topic.
No worries Macker. I've got this - but of course do chime in if something takes your fancy. I slipped up once, and we have a googled answer as a result. But as it turns out, it helps with the job at hand, Lol.
dewdman, oh hey I was beginning to miss your speciality. But now we have a lovely bit of projection here from the one whose posts change with the wind - oh yes I've seen you do it to cover your backside time and time again. Give me one example of me editing one of my posts that constitutes downright dishonesty and cheating, and I will apologise. That's your trick, sunshine, not mine.
Right oh, some more engineering 101, to counter the harm of dewdman's fake news.
Proximity effect. You really should have googled that one, dewdman. It refers to a property of most microphones whereby very close sources tend to elicit an enhanced response at lower frequencies, compared to the mic's frequency response to the same source at much greater distances. It could perhaps be more properly called the "close proximity" effect, since it becomes noticeable within about a metre or so between source and mic.
I'm willing to be wrong but I very much doubt if any of VSL's sample recordings have ever deliberately invoked the proximity effect. Otherwise mixing with VSL sample libraries would include the ever-present chore of EQing out the proximity effect on instruments that are to be placed farther back than right in your face!
The "Proximity" plugin that I assume you found in your random googling (as if Paolo can't google for himself) has a facility for EQing in or out the actual proximity effect of a typical microphone, but this of course has nothing to do with making a distinction between 10 metres and 15 metres, for example.
And you say this is the same as the other EQ-distance effect that I carefully questioned; i.e. the HF absorption of air (now you can google ISO 9631-1), which plays very little if any significant part in distinguishing differences between player positions on stage.
Tut tut. A big bit of noob confusion there by you, methinks. And yet you still make it sound as if you know what you're talking about, and that can cause untold mischief and confusion amongst non-technical music makers who all too often just accept what they're told to do about the technical stuff. They need to be protected from fake news merchants out just to make a name for themselves by any means, fair or foul.
And no dewdman, I've learnt the hard way. I'm not trusting you by giving you info up front. You ask to borrow my watch then turn round and tell me the time. It's an old management consultancy trick from the days when being a management consultant was for some a license to print money and win fame and fortune. And these 101s do come at a big price, dewdman. as you will discover.
Regarding the use of the word "proximity", I am dearly sorry for using it, since it has apparently caused such a controversy. I didn't realize the terminology-police would come after me with such a vengeance. I believe I have already explained what I meant several times, and it has nothing to do with microphones in this case. I was simply meaning to refer to changes of frequency that occur over distance. Sorry for any confusion this may have caused.
@Dietz: Is "EQ-distance" the politically correct safe term to use for this?
I think it can definitely affect distance perception, but its also true that ER's are so overwhelmingly powerful in giving our ears distance cues...that its quite possible that in the case of Synchron instruments it would make very little difference to try to change the distance using EQ. It's just something to try. And to repeat for the 3rd or 4th time, I am still of the opinion that Synchron Instruments are not meant to be used this way, they are placed on stage and if you want to play with stage placement...better to use VI/Synchronized.
Regarding ER: ER = Early Reflections. I'm pretty sure Paolo knew that already and knows a lot about how ER affects perception of depth. There are many freely available resources on the internet that already discuss how and why Early Reflections affect the perception depth on stage in certain venues. it is not necessary for me to explain it, nor do I need to prove myself. I don't know why I'm being raked over the coals for offering a simple suggestion.
As I said already in earlier post, I do NOT recommend messing around with adding new ER's to Synchron instrument sounds...
regards
Anyone from time to time might make a fool of themself by asserting stuff they really don't know about or have misunderstood. That's generally accepted as part of being human. And if called out on such an occasion, most people are willing to see their mistake or misunderstanding, and perhaps laugh about it, or make an apology, or even blush and fart and rush off in tears. A few might try to dig themselves in deeper, which doesn't usually end well for them. And even fewer might have a marked tendency to double down, and use various kinds of trolling, lying, projecting, gaslighting, ghosting, smearing, pity plays, triangulation, and other nefarious techniques to try to negate the calling out and to defame whoever did the calling out. Only in this last case is there likely to be damage done to the general integrity and wellbeing of social intercourse, and so sometimes it calls for handling of the sterner kind.
I'm speaking hypothetically. It's just a story. What could possibly go wrong in connection with "kind, benevolent and light" discussion of technical matters in a forum that is accustomed to dealing with technical matters? Because after all, we have centuries of modern empirical science and technology to call upon in order to find the truth, and to sort fact from fiction, don't we?
And there I will leave it for others to judge. I'm simply a guest in this revered forum.
I'm probably starting to get the grip on multimic mixing. It's interesting to see how I was never interested to detailed mixing with the other multimic libraries I own. With Synchron libraries, the idea of dealing with a real orchestra has become stronger.
If I understand (and hear) correctly, room mics always give the actual position of the instruments. A mix containing only room microphones would be like a photo of the instruments on stage.
Where you start moving things around is with mid and close mics. Making them more present in the mix makes the instruments come closer. Making them softer makes the instrument go farther.
Mic delay and algorithmic reverb does the rest, adding a sense of distance that can be accurately calculated by milliseconds and meters.
Paolo
New to Synchron myself and having spent part of today experimenting with results from different combinations, I actually appreciated this discussion.
(But, it seems that there is a personal feud from some other forum that got brought here. Startling, unnecessary, and unprofessional. Let's please be more generous to one another and forego personal attacks.)
I have a more general question: All of the presets by VSL have EITHER the Room mics OR the TREE mics. Can someone explain the rationale for the either/or approach? Is this simply to save resources (as if the extra CPU isn't worthwhile for the limited gain due to the overlap)? Is there any problem (phasing or similar) that might be expected from combining them? I'm not hearing any problems and actually liking what I'm hearing by combining them. Just a little confused as to why the VSL room presets never do combine them.
Also from a usage standpoint, some of the overall sound and impact from the choices made are so significant that I could see value in making the stage mic decision first, and then composing and mixing into it.
Hi Psalmster,
The Room-Mix Channel is exactly that, a versatile mix of ALL room microphones (including the ones available with the Full Library).
The idea was to create a resource-friendly starter preset that also gives you a taste of the additional room impression you get with the dedicated room mics in the Full Library.
Discrete mic channels give you MUCH more control over the sound.
Best,
Paul
