Got it. What you describe is what I always assumed. Yeah, I guess other DAWs would need to have implemented time-travel to eliminate live buffer latency!
So higher buffers causing "negative-delay" in DP is the operative here. That is new info for me. By keeping my buffers at 512 I guess I've never noticed the discrepancy - mainly, probably because I'm not much of a player. At 512 that negative-lag is the least of my problems.
But is this a VEP issue, evang42? Or do all VI exhibit this in DP?
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This problem exists in DP with any VI. For example, we tested it with a basic MoTU VI, in the actual sequence on the host computer (no VEPro, Bidule, etc.), and it is still a problem. Take the VI out, and record into a MIDI track that's not connected to anything, and MIDI is recorded correctly, regardless of buffer setting. By the way, I can set Pro Tools up with the same parameters and it does not exhibit this problem. All modern DAWs compute where to record the MIDI note regardless of buffer size, latency, etc..
Finally, this problem does not exist with AMD PCs or M1 Macs. You can record MIDI with a VI and a 1048 buffer on a M1 MacBook Pro and the MIDI notes will be recorded exactly as you played them. Matt Batson and I did a lot of testing on this, and the engineers confirmed it.
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Now I see. Hence, you're hoping for an AS native version of VE Pro ASAP, so you can make the switch to an M1 Mac. As I mentioned the AU version of VEP works fine with DP. I haven't investigated, but presumably it wouldn't have the timing bug. It's cumbersome, and not nearly as convenient as the MAS version but it might work as a stopgap for you, so you could get going on an M1 Mac, until there's a native MAS VEP.This problem exists in DP with any VI. For example, we tested it with a basic MoTU VI, in the actual sequence on the host computer (no VEPro, Bidule, etc.), and it is still a problem. Take the VI out, and record into a MIDI track that's not connected to anything, and MIDI is recorded correctly, regardless of buffer setting. By the way, I can set Pro Tools up with the same parameters and it does not exhibit this problem. All modern DAWs compute where to record the MIDI note regardless of buffer size, latency, etc..
Finally, this problem does not exist with AMD PCs or M1 Macs. You can record MIDI with a VI and a 1048 buffer on a M1 MacBook Pro and the MIDI notes will be recorded exactly as you played them. Matt Batson and I did a lot of testing on this, and the engineers confirmed it.
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...and now iLok is done... hopefully beside debugging it (just last little inconsistencies, the overall job was quite brilliant, well done VSL) a VEP7 universal macOS will be released...
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...and now iLok is done... hopefully beside debugging it (just last little inconsistencies, the overall job was quite brilliant, well done VSL) a VEP7 universal macOS will be released...
I reckon it could be awhile still. Creating a UB version of VEP must be a lot more complex than creating one for an audio plugin....many of which are still in development almost 18 months after the arrival of M1
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I'm assuming VEP7 would stay on Rosetta and VEP8 would be the software to make native. Seems like a heck of a lot of work to have to do it fro VEP7 when VEP8 is probably on the horizon. It would also be a little nudge to encourage an upgrade :-)
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I'm assuming VEP7 would stay on Rosetta and VEP8 would be the software to make native. Seems like a heck of a lot of work to have to do it fro VEP7 when VEP8 is probably on the horizon. It would also be a little nudge to encourage an upgrade :-)
We’ll, I sure don’t like this idea. I’d like it better if VEP worked with Rosetta for me, but it does not. The MAS version of the plugin doesn’t work under Rosetta. If they updated the MAS plugin to work with Rosetta I’d be okay waiting a bit for the privilege of paying for a UB compatible upgrade.
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...along these lines, I'm reading that MacOS 12.3 seems to have fixed a lot of plugins that weren't working in Monterey. I'm holding back updating for a couple of reasons, but I'm curious if, by some miracle, the update makes the MAS plugin usable on M1 Macs.
It does not. Basically unless you're running Cubase or Bitwig, VSTs don't run in Rosetta. Bitwig sandboxes the VSTs so they run in Rosetta in Bitwig native. As Far as MAS is concerned MOTU would have to implement this themselves and I would bet they decided that the 8-12 companies that make MAS plug ins would be coming to native soon enough.
So yeah, I miss the MAS VEP plug in, and hope that Vienna get going on this soon enough.
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To be clear, DP11 itself is fully AS native, but as you point out VEP MAS won't work in Rosetta. I actually spoke to someone at MOTU about this and they said that Rosetta could only translate AU plugins (and not MAS) so unfortunately it's up to VSL to go AS native and deliver a MAS version to get this working again and it seems there's nothing more MOTU can do.
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I also use DP11 and am a beta tester and can report issues directly to the MOTU devs. What are the steps/circumstances that cause the midi timing bug w DP11/VEP you’ve found on intel???? This needs to be fixed asap regardless of AS transition.
With higher buffer settings (e.g. 1048), if you are routing a MIDI track to a VI (any VI, even a MoTU VI), MIDI records about 60 ms late. Also "Fine-tune Audio I/O Timing" does not work on these machines. The only workaround is nudging MIDI back into place after recording. I've been working extensively with Matt Batson in tech support, and the engineering team has been made aware of the bug. They have reproduced it on 2 different Intel machines, and confirmed that it does not happen on their AMD PC or their M1 Mac Mini. I don't know that it is a priority for them though.
There is an extensive thread about this on MoTUNation, "MIDI recording late", where I document what's going on in detail (though you may have to wade through some off-topic or uninformed posts to see it). If you have access to the engineering team and can help nudge them toward supporting the older Intel machines, that would be great!
Hi dmansfield! I found an answer/fix for you on this! In DP's preferences, go to midi options and UN-check the box called "Sync Recorded Midi to Patch Thru". This SHOULD totally fix your issue (on ANY machine, apple silicon, intel, pc etc). It's a setting that tells DP to place midi either 1) exactly where you PLAYED/intended it (un-checked) OR 2) where you would normally HEAR that midi (which of course is dependent on buffer size/latency).
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Okay. Not great news, but this kind of clarity is useful.To be clear, DP11 itself is fully AS native, but as you point out VEP MAS won't work in Rosetta. I actually spoke to someone at MOTU about this and they said that Rosetta could only translate AU plugins (and not MAS) so unfortunately it's up to VSL to go AS native and deliver a MAS version to get this working again and it seems there's nothing more MOTU can do.
I know developers rarely divulge timelines, but it sure would be nice to get a general sense of how long it will be until there's a UB VE-Pro and MAS plugin (weeks? months? years?) - I need to restart several huge projects from 2019 that rely on VEP with MAS. Converting them to AU will be a time-consuming pain.
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Logic will be fine. Unless you're a DP user everything is working via Rosetta. Only DP's MAS version of the VEP plugin isn't compatible.Hello, I am just changing my Mac to M1 Mac.
I read the thread but please explain me, what is not compatible now? I am using VEP7 on a PC connected to my DAW Mac. Will I be able to use my templates on LOGIC with AU3 and AU2 VEP7 plugin?
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The performance here is certainly better than it's ever performed, I credit the system on chip architecture.
But, trying to use BFD3 in it brought the system to its knees, haven't seen anything like it since I had a drastically underspec computer early this century.
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As people have already pointed out in other threads and forums:
We need the VEP VST3 plugin first and foremost converted to Apple Silicon, the server can wait since that could be off-loaded onto other computers, and/or can be run in Rosetta as it is not as dependent on CPU as the DAW that uses heavy audio processing with effects and signal chains.
If a plugin is not native Silicon, it will not show up if the entire DAW doesn't run in Rosetta. Which is much slower than running native. So basically, that makes VEP useless for any Apple Silicon user at this point since it will vastly reduce the performance of all other plugins.I understand that iLok had to be a priority, and that software developers (which I partly work as myself) can't just wave a magic wand, but it would be nice to have some kind of roadmap made public now that it's been more than two years since the release of M1, so we can start planning the transition. My Mac Pro 2013 is running on fumes, and it seems like a total waste to have to buy an Intel machine just because VSL can't give any information about this.
