Finale, expressions, dynamics, hairpins, HP, and Vienna VEP don't seem to play well together

[UpBeat Studios]

I've been using Finale for decades and Vienna for years. I can't figure out the perfect combination of CC#s and velocity to get 1) dynamics, 2) hairpins, 3) Velocity XF, and 4) articulations using velocity to all work at the same time. I'm hoping someone can help me - I'm going crazy!

My current Controllers that seem relevant;

Dynamics = CC#7

VelXF = CC#2

Articulation example, ^ = 125% velocity, 80% duration. (duration works, added velocity doesn't)

VelXF is checked

Human Playback ON, Cresc/Dim set to Automatic, Dynamic approach set to CC#7 + Velocity, MIDI Data all set to HP (Incorporate Data) except Start/Stop Time set to Ignore Data

It seems velocity based Articulations work if VelXF is not checked, but that loses all the amazingness of the different velocity layers playing.

I look forward to someone's insight, and will reimburse knowledge with Guinness :-)

Mac, OS 10.15.3, VEP 7 running on server

[andi]

Hello Jenna!

As far as I know, Finale can't send CC2 commands for dynamic changes - at least not with the Human Playback Preferences. If you want to use VelXF with your Finale score, I recommend setting VelXF to CC11 and Expression to a different free CC. In the Finale Human Playback Preferences you can then set the Dynamic Approach for Sustaining instruments to control CC11.

Dynamic control also works with VelXF turned off, but dynamic changes during single notes will not be possible this way.

Best regards,
Andi

[UpBeat Studios]

Hi Andi, thanks for your reply.

Unfortunately I can't make this work... what do you have set for Volume in the VIP Control map, and what are your Finale HP preferences for Dynamics/Volume and for MIDI Data?

I have the Finale dynamics set to CC#7 to change the volume in VIP. No combination of the Dynamics/Volume and for MIDI Data preferences will get this to work :-/

Thanks again for your help :-)

[andi]

Hello Jenna!

I use the following settings for our instruments with Finale:
Master Volume: CC7
Expresion: CC12
Velocity XFade turned on and set to CC11

Finale HP Preferences/Dynamics/Volume/Dynamic Approach for Sustaining instruments: CC#11

Some earlier Finale versions had CC7 and CC11 mixed up. I don't remember which versions had this bug exactly, but if you happen to have one of these versions, you may have to set the Dynamic Approach setting to CC#7 in Finale.

I wouldn't use Velocity XFade for Harp, Piano and percussive instruments.

Best regards,
Andi

[UpBeat Studios]

Thanks Andi, but this is simply not working. I can either have velocity based articulations like an accent (Velocity XFade turned OFF) OR have all the beautiful timbres with Velocity XFade turned ON.

Can you do me  favor please - can you send me a blank Finale file with all of your expressions, and please attach the prefs to the file. 

[andi]

Hello Jenna!

It will not be of much use, if I send you Human Playback Preferences with the settings I have described in my last post. If you want to, you can send your Finale project and the Vienna Ensemble (Pro) project to support@vsl.co.at. I can take a look at your files then. Please add a reference to this thread and let me know which Finale version and OS you are using.

Best regards,
Andi

[UpBeat Studios]

Got it, I will do this shortly. I have a quick question for you re: your settings - when a whole note crescendoes (hairpin), does it change the velocity, the volume, or both? 

Blessings

[andi]

Hello Jenna!

With VelXF activated, hairpins change Velocity XFade. Master volume should not be affected. Velocity can't be changed after the attack of a note.

Best,
Andi

[UpBeat Studios]

Thank you, that explains some of this. The goal of life "human" performace of an Orchestra or Jazz Band is to change dynamics (volume) without changing the Timbre (VelXF). As you know - the fff in Barber's "Adagio for Strings" is very different sounding than the  fff in a Shostakovich symphony. A beautiful warm fff vs. a bright exhilerating  fff.

That aside, I can't get accents to work w/ XF ON. Here are my settings,, and I'll send a Finale and VEP doument shortly.

Thank you for hanging in there with me!

Jenna - UpBeat Studios

CC#Controls

3Y Axis of Matrix

7Volume

9Legato Blur

11VelXF

12Expression

14Algo Wet

15VEP Channel Faders

16MirPro Offset %

20SlotX

21Start Scaler: 

22Master Attack

23Master Release

24Master Filter

25Delay Scaler: 

26Tuning Scaler: 

27Humanize: 

28Vel XF On/Off

29RSamp On/Off: 

30Dynamic Range Scaler: 

31A/B Switch

33Legato Blur

64Damper Pedal /Sustain Pedal

65MIRx Wet

73Reverb On/Off

KS 115-126X Axis of Matrix

VelocityHP velocity articulations

[Clayking]

Here are the setting that I've found that work best.

First, change Finale's "HP Preferences/ Dynamic/Volume tab for "Dynamic Approach..." to "Modulation (CC#1) + Velocity for Attack."

If you haven't already, download the Vienna HP Preference set and Finale Keyswitch dump library from the VI download site.

I set the VI controls to Vol = 7,  Expression = 11, Velocity Crossfade = 1, and the Y axis = 16 (I made a separate library for the latter).   With these settings hairpins, dynamic markings, articulations respond to HP.

I also changed the Matrix list control from "ksw" to "pgm."  I've found that some of the general keyswitches in Vienna's HP Preference set can trigger a short low-register bleat when beginning playback within a piece.  Also some instruments didn't seem to respond to markings.  To remedy that I've added additional instrument definitions to the preference set and unchecked some of the general ones.

One last caveat: files created on older versions of Finale (I believe prior to v. 2014) don't seem to respond correct to HP.  The solution recommended on another forum is to open a brand new music file and copy/paste the notation from the older file.

[UpBeat Studios]

Thank you for "ClayKing" for posting! Two quick questions as I start to work w/ your suggestions...

1. The HP preferences seem to be specifically for Special Editions so I have never used them, does it work for you with "non-special" libraries? ie. Brass I, WWs I, Epic Horns, etc
2. would you be so generous as to send me a FInale file w/ your setttings and expressions? email upbeatstudios@icloud.com

I'm pumped to get this to work for me :-)

[Clayking]

Sorry, I can't answer your first question, perhaps Andi can, but if you're playing those instruments via VI Ensemble as host they should work the same.

I'll email you regarding your second question. 

[andi]

Hello Jenna!

The Special Edition Human Playback Preferences work only with the Special Edition volumes. For other libraries they will generate wrong keyswitches.

Best regards,
Andi

[Clayking]

Just to expand on Andi's post, in Finale, filters can be applied to any instrument's Human Preference setting so that the technique is only applied under a specific criteria, i.e., library name, device, staff name, channel, etc.  In that way different sample sets from the same company that have different keyswitches can be configured so they don't conflict.   Also, since the VSL is a comprehensive list of keyswitch expressions they can be copied and/or modified within Finale to accomodate additional Vienna sample sets that have different keyswitches than the special editions.