Quite right, could have said it better unfortunately.

Max

That is interesting to hear about both Stephane and Max having the live performances.   I had a live performance and very good recording made of the Earth and Paradise song cycle performed by the Reno Chamber Orchestra, but it was not as good as VSL in either expressiveness, accuracy, intonation, tone quality or overall acoustics.  And they are considered a major chamber orchestra now (just try to get them to play one of your pieces!) and had around six rehearsals with an eager, enthusiastic conductor.    

On the comparison between live and sampled it ultimately depends on the quality of the orchestra (and rehearsals) on the one hand, and on the other both the quality of sample library and the skill of the programmer/performer.  One thing I continue to notice about VSL is how I have not hit any "limit" of expression with it.  It is rather dependent on how well I do the performance, and how much time and effort I take with the detail and selection of articulations and controllers.  

I can only agree with it, William.

However there's a huge danger in merely using samples (which is regularly overlooked): the balance. It's no big deal to have every single instrument (how weak it may be) surpass the entire orchestral volume with a sampled ensemble. A recorder can blow away a complete philharmonic strength... The programmer/performer should be realistic and keep that in mind all the time.

As to live performances, Stéphane did mention it: as long as we're not 'bankable', we're not so interesting and the number of rehearsals/performances will be very limitid if existing at all.

I once (2001) had a very good experience with a large orchestra (50 performers) with one of my pieces. It was commissioned by the Izegem World Festival Committee. I had to perform a rhapsody with as many instruments as possible, taken from all the participating folk dance orchestras. They came from all over the world (even Argentina). I wrote a piece for bandoneon and large orchestra. It was performed after only one rehearsal (4 hours), but it was a great experience both for me and the audience. Unfortunately no recording was made, but I have a mockup with the old VSL libraries within Kontakt and the Golan Hohner accordion. The quality is not up to present standards, but still it is nice to hear it again. The middle piece for percussion* was meant as a choreography for flag wavers. Very impressing! The audience was really excited about the rhapsody.

* bones and timpani, cymbals, tambourine, triangle (with a typicla rhythm for bones)

A Peoples' Rhapsody, Festival 2001

All the best,

Max

Thanks to all of you for sharing these things.

There is only one more thing i would take into account with regard to the 'mockup VS live' topic: the venue could have a good sound but not perfect, or way too different in terms of response to the excellent IR we all use (from MIR, Vienna Suite etc...). That being said every symphony recording i've listened to has far more tail than we all use in our mixes, still mantaining clarity in the brass and lush strings. This always struck me. 

Concerning the rehearshal subject: i had a band once, we were aware of the difference between our music and the couple of hits we played, we knew the famous songs come out better and we always tried to create balance rehearshing our music two times more than the hits (both at home, individually, and when rehearshing all toghether). Beside the financial aspect i believe that people overlooks the amount of dedication that is required to master brand new music. In fact what you described happened also to some of my friends who are composers having their music played from soloists....and soloists are not payed for the rehearshals, they study 24/7. Does it make sense? 😃

Hi Francesco.

Indeed, it is the balance between wet and clarity that is my problem when I mix my mockups.  More reverb induces mud and often harshness.  At the same time, when I listen to nicely recorded music, there is a lot of reverb, yet you can see through and all instruments are still focused, and the overall sound is agreable.

I must say that I did a step forward when trying the Pernegg roompack.  I was also extremely satisfied with the new Hybrid reverb Pro, which I must explore further.

Hi Stephane,

i see what you say with regard to the mud, however it never happened to me to feel harsness because of more reverb. I use the old Vienna Suite so i can't advice you on MIR, i bet the new Hybrid Reverb Pro is amazing. I am quite happy of the compromise between wetness and clarity i achieved with this mix, i am aware this music is far from the wide dynamic range of your piece. As it is i mixed it that way thanks to the Beat Kaufmann's guidelines, i wonder whether you might find them useful....

Francesco

Hi Francesco.

Your piece is tremendous.  The mix is superb, absolutely professionnal stuff.  I simply can't achieve this (yet).  Will you share your secrets ?

Stéphane.

Hi Stéphane,

thanks for the kind remarks of my work, i am sincerely flattered. 😊 

Beat Kaufmann helped me a lot posting in this thread. I also enjoyed his website: www.beat-kaufmann.com. Credit him is the least i can do: he is a kind and good composer.

With individual tracks i used just Eq to cut resonances, a bit of Comp on Timpani and Harp to tame the loudest peaks, i used the Vienna Ensemble built in pan for the instrument positioning. Then i created 4 bus groups: Strings, Woodwinds+Harp, Brass, Percussion, i assigned this groups as output for the related instruments; then i inserted a Vienna Convolution Reverb instance (Grosser Saal IR) and another Eq in each bus group, for the percussion i leaved the Reverb as it was...then used a bit less wet for Brass etc.... ect.... i did the opposite thing with Eq: kept Strings as they were, rolled off a bit of high frequencies for Woodwinds a bit more for Bass etc. For the mastering chain i used Eq to cut under 35Hz and to reduce the hiss, Compressor just to raise the signal, a little bit of Exciter, then Multiband (in this case i struggled to tame mid-low which came from Bassoons+Trombones+Perc+Low Strings), finally the Limiter.

What you said with regard to harshness and wetness made me think you might have some room issues. I mix with a normal pair of Yamaha HS8 and my room is not treated but it is good enough and i really spent a lot of time positioning the speakers and positioning everything else in my room. Additionally i've bounced that track a lot of times and listened to it through every speaker i had in mind: including my car, smartphone, old relic hi-fi, etc..... this way i started seeing when my room or speakers were lying to me: it is nearly impossible to mix the bass frequency and to dose the reverb if your listening is bad and unbalanced bass spectrum mainly affects clarity and headroom.

I really hope this helps! 

Francesco

Thanks a lot, Francesco.

It helps, indeed.  I'll give a try to those techniques.  And yes, I'm in the process of soundproofing and treating a dedicated room, hoping this will improve my listening environment.

You are very welcome, Stéphane.

Good luck with the room treatment, look forward to hearing the further mix of your beautiful piece when you will share it. 😃



P.s. almost forgotten:

I also had a little Comp in each bus group, always meant to reduce loudest peaks without making the section sound processed.... a short attack (between 20 and 30ms), a gentle ratio (1 to 1.5 generally). I've setted the treshold being sure to soften only the hits, the reduction went quickly back to zero.

Optimizing the acoustics of the listening environement is without doubt _the_ most important investment in any  studio setup. Better acoustics are pretty much the only "shortcut" in anybody's search for good arrangements, programmings and mixes. 😊

*************

... and a completely unrelated sidenote (just to avoid confusion):

@Another User said:

I also had a little Comp in each bus group, always meant to reduce loudest peaks without making the section sound processed.... a short attack (between 20 and 30ms)

Nice that you shime in, Dietz !

I'm still trying to get my real 100 piece orchestra to sound like a fake sampled orchestra😛 

It's like pulling teeth I tell you!!!😠

Maybe I should just give up and invest in a sample library😔

I know people (with credit) who do both :

samples libraries for what they do best,

and real orchestra for what the former can't.

Hi Dietz,

thanks for your note: i will treasure it. 😃

All the very best.

Francesco

Concerning unusual articulations VSL is certainly adding more of them with each new library. The clarinet 2 is an example.  I agree that more of these are needed.  But that doesn't mean that samples are always inferior to live. For example if you have a piece that uses articulations that are well-represented, it can sound very good, many times better than live performance depending on the orchestra. 

I probably said this before but I think a threshold was crossed by VSL when it created the legato sampling technique, multiple dynamic layers and alternate short notes.  Those three elements are so important and now so basic to sampling that everyone takes them for granted.  Sample libraries everywhere are now imitating VSL who pioneered these elements of sampling and have gone far beyond.  But this threshold is what allows the single most important thing in music - the musical phrase or line - to exist.  You must have legato transitions, authentic dynamics and alternate short notes in order to create a real musical phrase.  I was thinking about this because I watched a silent film recently that had one of those old sampler scores - pre 2000.  It was intensely disturbing to hear, because there was never a musical phrase except by fakery - everything was single note samples, no dynamics, no alternate short notes, and most glaringly, no legato.  So everything breaks apart into individual notes, and there is essentially no musical phrase or coherent line of musical thought except by artificial means.  As a result the sampling sounds grotesque and unnatural and deeply offensive.  All this changed when VSL came into being, though no one today seems to remember and thinks expressive sampling just exists everywhere there's enough water, like toadstools.   

It reminds me of what has happened with video relative to film.  Standard definition video was always grossly inferior to film, even 16mm film, because of the lack of resolution and color depth.  But with the advent of HD video, a certain threshold was crossed in both areas, such that today an ordinary HD camera produces a better image than 16mm, and a 4K camera is capable of imaging equivalent or superior to 35mm theatrical in resolution and - with proper post production - color and dynamic range.   But people are taking for granted this amazing fact,  and eagerly await the next even higher quality camera, seemingly unaware of how they already have in their hands a little camera capable of better images than what filmmakers throughout the entire history of international cinema ever had!   

agreed, so much, William.

Making things easy doesn't make things easy, it just makes people lazy.