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    Bonjour Stéphane

    Bude Večer and Running Waters are on this forum (a while ago). I have no idea whether they will be recorded. The first performance will be in Flanders on Friday 6 November. There will be a concert in the Czech Republic as well, but only next year.

    Bude Večer

    Running Waters

    Unfortunately, Running Waters has been programmed in VSL SE. The room setting was in MIR Pro. I should make a better mockup, the main goal was the live performance. A little explanation on my website. The choir is the Kontakt 5 mixed choir. Both scores directly recorded from Notion.

    Kindly,

    Max


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    @Stephane Collin said:

    I don't know about the recording. Anyway, I'll take my H4N with me. 

    The synth is the Arturia mini V plugin, and I'll play that on stage.  It runs through the Waves J37 tape emulation, which is, no doubt, what makes the sound.  All the rest is VSL in Pernegg.  I adore the voices, those really inspire me for composing.

    Very good, thanks for sharing this precious info. Look forward to hearing the recording whether you upload it on your website.

    All the very best.


    Francesco
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    @Stephane Collin said:


    This was commissionned for being played together with the Requiem of Mozart, hence the instrumentarium.
    The synth is the Arturia mini V plugin

    Nice to see that W.A. Mozart owned a Minimoog!
    Congratulations for the beautiful composition, A class rendering and for having it played live.


    VI Special Edition 1-3, Reaper, MuseScore 3, Notion 3 (collecting dust), vst flotsam and jetsam
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    He never told his father 😉


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    Hi Stephane, community,

    would you mind to share how was the live performance? Hope it was fine! Did you manage to make some useful changes to the VSL rendition after you had a listen to the H4N recording? 😊

    All the best


    Francesco
  • Hello Francesco, community.

    The Mozart concert was really great and the orchestra played my piece really well.

    That being said, I must second William when he says that common live performances hardly come close to a good mockup.  Alas, for some reasons, I didn't install my H4N to make a live recording.  But I payed extra attention to what I was hearing.

    First and biggest problem is : the orchestra had only two rehearsals before D day.  Apparently, more is practically impossible (at least in small Belgium).  I heard clearly the piece increase in quality at every iteration, the conducter was really fine, understood everything (ar... nearly) at once and was giving nice directions.  Yet, the day before the concert, there were still bugs.  So the real spirit potential of the piece (if it has some) never came out until the very concert, and then, I can only dream about how much better it would have been with only two more rehearsals.  Funny, at this stage, to hear that when they play the Mozart Requiem, the orchestra immediately sounds like 5 times better.  Of course, all the musicians know the music of Mozart, know the Requiem by heart, and know perfectly how to play it, and the difference in SOUND is tremendous.

    Here is the right place to say that this is, in my opinion, the limitation of mockup performance.  Even if you, daw programmer, do have some knowledge about how exactly a single instrument performance should be, you nevertheless are stuck with what was recorded in the library, no matter how finely precise that work was done.  This is clearly a limitation.  And one positive side would be to, as a composer, to compose intentionnally with exactly no more than what your libraries can do.  This is a nice matter of discussion : libraries considered as a musical instrument per se.  But that was not the meaning.

    To say it shortly : a good library well programmed can not beat a bunch of dedicated top musicians well prepared and giving their full education in an inspired performance, but it outperforms easily an average third sight reading.

    I payed tight attention to the mixing engineer point of view (hearing rather), and I was surprised how, in a large church orchestral live concert, there is WAY more wet reverb than what you would consider decent in a stereo mix. Even I who do like lots of wet (I am often told I put too much reverb on my mixes) I clearly noticed that there was an enormous amount of very long reverb at the concert.  Curiously, at the same time, the direct sound from the musicians was WAY more sparkling and precise, and with a kind of intimacy that makes you feel very close to them.  And finally, the stereo stage is nearly inexistant : you don't hear clearly first violins 5 meters left of the celli.

    That being said, I am convinced that the ideal audiophile listening experience in one's living room is NOT mimicking the live conditions of the concert.  Human brain adapts really well and really immediately to a whole range of situations, and the feeling "this is right and nice" depends on many factors, some of them not strictly related to the acoustics.

    Sorry for being long, but that was the opportunity.  The day of this concert of Mozart Requiem and Mozart aux Enfers (my piece) was the day after the Paris terrorist attacks.  The church was full of people full of compassionnal feelings and terrible fears.  The harmony was nearly touchable.  This you don't get behind a computer monitor.

    Anyway, as I said, this kind of experience will not be given many times to me.  So I'll say it again, thanks to VSL (and all other producers) for making all this possible.

    Stéphane.


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    Hi Stéphane,

    You mentioned a few things that I can confirm fully. Lately I had a concersation with a befriended composer about the stereo image of our mockups (such a strange word). We all tend to think in left and right because we have two ears, but in reality our brain melts all the input audio signals together to one spacial sound, without distinct left and right. That means that a virtual stereo image should concentrate on the amount of sound that passes in all directions, even of the reflections. Moreover, the instruments send a serious amount of direct sound into the room (without being processed through dry/wet applications). That is why a performance in a long reverb tail hall still sounds so clear. The reflection always come later. The first violins (usually to the left) are always clearly audible to the right, be it in diminishing volume and their reflections come from all directions with different reflection times. Programs like MIR and Vienna Suite have impulse responses to create that sort of environment and with large orchestras they succeed rather well in composing a true hearing image. With small ensembles (like my version of Beethoven's Serenata in D), there are only 3 players centered on the stage. Then what is left and what is right...? And we do want to create space in stereo... don't we?

    Second, you said that the orchestra only took 2 rehearsals. That is not OK, certainly not for a professional orchestra performing an entirely new piece. But again, time is money and the audience 'won't hear the difference'. I must add here that the live performances of my two works (Bude Vecer and Running Waters) suffered from the very same disease and even worse. The symphony orchestra that came from Prague sent 18 musicians (only 6 violins, 1 viola, 1 cello 1 bass and not all the necessary winds were present, and a harp that was a digital piano and ways too loud). The double choir had about 80 voices. Do you see the imbalance? And it still gets worse: the musicians didn't have any rehearsal for Bude Vecer. At the very spot, they noticed that they simply couldn't play the score (it has numerous composite time signatures to imitate the rubato feel of the original folk song). That seemed to be a huge problem. So the conductor simply decided to do only the choir parts (the choirs being amatuers, the orchestra being pros..., what a shame!). There was a recording of the pieces, but I didn't want to hear it. The organisers wrere so disappointed about the performance. The church was filled to the very last seat. And that was not a Belgian orchestra.

    So I do feel the same pain. In many cases, this a once-in-a-lifetime-opportunity.

    Let's get back to our mockups. They only disappoint us when we fail 😉 .

    Max


  • Nice to read you, Max, and nice to see that your experience is close to mine.  So far, as I understand it, as long as you are not "bankable", you can't expect any better.

    Stéphane.


  • Quite right, could have said it better unfortunately.

    Max


  • That is interesting to hear about both Stephane and Max having the live performances.   I had a live performance and very good recording made of the Earth and Paradise song cycle performed by the Reno Chamber Orchestra, but it was not as good as VSL in either expressiveness, accuracy, intonation, tone quality or overall acoustics.  And they are considered a major chamber orchestra now (just try to get them to play one of your pieces!) and had around six rehearsals with an eager, enthusiastic conductor.    

    On the comparison between live and sampled it ultimately depends on the quality of the orchestra (and rehearsals) on the one hand, and on the other both the quality of sample library and the skill of the programmer/performer.  One thing I continue to notice about VSL is how I have not hit any "limit" of expression with it.  It is rather dependent on how well I do the performance, and how much time and effort I take with the detail and selection of articulations and controllers.  


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    I can only agree with it, William.

    However there's a huge danger in merely using samples (which is regularly overlooked): the balance. It's no big deal to have every single instrument (how weak it may be) surpass the entire orchestral volume with a sampled ensemble. A recorder can blow away a complete philharmonic strength... The programmer/performer should be realistic and keep that in mind all the time.

    As to live performances, Stéphane did mention it: as long as we're not 'bankable', we're not so interesting and the number of rehearsals/performances will be very limitid if existing at all.

    I once (2001) had a very good experience with a large orchestra (50 performers) with one of my pieces. It was commissioned by the Izegem World Festival Committee. I had to perform a rhapsody with as many instruments as possible, taken from all the participating folk dance orchestras. They came from all over the world (even Argentina). I wrote a piece for bandoneon and large orchestra. It was performed after only one rehearsal (4 hours), but it was a great experience both for me and the audience. Unfortunately no recording was made, but I have a mockup with the old VSL libraries within Kontakt and the Golan Hohner accordion. The quality is not up to present standards, but still it is nice to hear it again. The middle piece for percussion* was meant as a choreography for flag wavers. Very impressing! The audience was really excited about the rhapsody.

    * bones and timpani, cymbals, tambourine, triangle (with a typicla rhythm for bones)

    A Peoples' Rhapsody, Festival 2001

    All the best,

    Max


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    Thanks to all of you for sharing these things.

    There is only one more thing i would take into account with regard to the 'mockup VS live' topic: the venue could have a good sound but not perfect, or way too different in terms of response to the excellent IR we all use (from MIR, Vienna Suite etc...). That being said every symphony recording i've listened to has far more tail than we all use in our mixes, still mantaining clarity in the brass and lush strings. This always struck me. 

    Concerning the rehearshal subject: i had a band once, we were aware of the difference between our music and the couple of hits we played, we knew the famous songs come out better and we always tried to create balance rehearshing our music two times more than the hits (both at home, individually, and when rehearshing all toghether). Beside the financial aspect i believe that people overlooks the amount of dedication that is required to master brand new music. In fact what you described happened also to some of my friends who are composers having their music played from soloists....and soloists are not payed for the rehearshals, they study 24/7. Does it make sense? 😃


    Francesco
  • Hi Francesco.

    Indeed, it is the balance between wet and clarity that is my problem when I mix my mockups.  More reverb induces mud and often harshness.  At the same time, when I listen to nicely recorded music, there is a lot of reverb, yet you can see through and all instruments are still focused, and the overall sound is agreable.

    I must say that I did a step forward when trying the Pernegg roompack.  I was also extremely satisfied with the new Hybrid reverb Pro, which I must explore further.


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    Hi Stephane,

    i see what you say with regard to the mud, however it never happened to me to feel harsness because of more reverb. I use the old Vienna Suite so i can't advice you on MIR, i bet the new Hybrid Reverb Pro is amazing. I am quite happy of the compromise between wetness and clarity i achieved with this mix, i am aware this music is far from the wide dynamic range of your piece. As it is i mixed it that way thanks to the Beat Kaufmann's guidelines, i wonder whether you might find them useful....

    Francesco


    Francesco
  • Hi Francesco.

    Your piece is tremendous.  The mix is superb, absolutely professionnal stuff.  I simply can't achieve this (yet).  Will you share your secrets ?

    Stéphane.


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    Hi Stéphane,

    thanks for the kind remarks of my work, i am sincerely flattered. 😊 

    Beat Kaufmann helped me a lot posting in this thread. I also enjoyed his website: www.beat-kaufmann.com. Credit him is the least i can do: he is a kind and good composer.

    With individual tracks i used just Eq to cut resonances, a bit of Comp on Timpani and Harp to tame the loudest peaks, i used the Vienna Ensemble built in pan for the instrument positioning. Then i created 4 bus groups: Strings, Woodwinds+Harp, Brass, Percussion, i assigned this groups as output for the related instruments; then i inserted a Vienna Convolution Reverb instance (Grosser Saal IR) and another Eq in each bus group, for the percussion i leaved the Reverb as it was...then used a bit less wet for Brass etc.... ect.... i did the opposite thing with Eq: kept Strings as they were, rolled off a bit of high frequencies for Woodwinds a bit more for Bass etc. For the mastering chain i used Eq to cut under 35Hz and to reduce the hiss, Compressor just to raise the signal, a little bit of Exciter, then Multiband (in this case i struggled to tame mid-low which came from Bassoons+Trombones+Perc+Low Strings), finally the Limiter.

    What you said with regard to harshness and wetness made me think you might have some room issues. I mix with a normal pair of Yamaha HS8 and my room is not treated but it is good enough and i really spent a lot of time positioning the speakers and positioning everything else in my room. Additionally i've bounced that track a lot of times and listened to it through every speaker i had in mind: including my car, smartphone, old relic hi-fi, etc..... this way i started seeing when my room or speakers were lying to me: it is nearly impossible to mix the bass frequency and to dose the reverb if your listening is bad and unbalanced bass spectrum mainly affects clarity and headroom.

    I really hope this helps! 

    Francesco


    Francesco
  • Thanks a lot, Francesco.

    It helps, indeed.  I'll give a try to those techniques.  And yes, I'm in the process of soundproofing and treating a dedicated room, hoping this will improve my listening environment.


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    You are very welcome, Stéphane.

    Good luck with the room treatment, look forward to hearing the further mix of your beautiful piece when you will share it. 😃



    P.s. almost forgotten:

    I also had a little Comp in each bus group, always meant to reduce loudest peaks without making the section sound processed.... a short attack (between 20 and 30ms), a gentle ratio (1 to 1.5 generally). I've setted the treshold being sure to soften only the hits, the reduction went quickly back to zero.


    Francesco
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    Optimizing the acoustics of the listening environement is without doubt _the_ most important investment in any  studio setup. Better acoustics are pretty much the only "shortcut" in anybody's search for good arrangements, programmings and mixes. 😊

    *************

    ... and a completely unrelated sidenote (just to avoid confusion):

    @Another User said:

    I also had a little Comp in each bus group, always meant to reduce loudest peaks without making the section sound processed.... a short attack (between 20 and 30ms)

    It's all a matter of unwritten agreements, but when soundengineers are talking about "short attacks" of a dynamics processor, they usually have something in mind like 0.1 to 1 or maybe 3 ms. Values like 20 to 30 ms are quite relaxed and will already let pass most attacks and even the occasional loud note. :-)

    Kind regards,


    /Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
  • Nice that you shime in, Dietz !