"This is a weakness or strength of recorders, depending how you look at it."

Definitely a strength. The rather delicate dynamics in recorders are a major part of their charm.

I wonder if the recorder players here would answer this question - is the legato tool needed as much with recorders as with other instruments? I do not remember noticing a sliding or noticeably portamento legato with recorders, but then I haven't listened to any in a long time and certainly not with sampling of legato in mind.

Defintely needed.

And at least two dynamic layers. It IS a different sound if the player INTENDS to play loud or soft. Same applies to Harpsichord, btw.

William, playing multiple notes in the same breath is the same as on all woodwinds. You don't get a new attack on each one.

The main things with recorder are differences in vibrato (or no vibrato) and the three basic tonguings - although there's also tickatickaticka and doodledoodledoodle for repeated notes, plus variations of all of the above.

Incidentally, the dynamic range at the bottom of the instrument is practically nonexistent, especially low C# (F# on an alto), since you have to blow "just so" to get a good tone.

I have seen a chin-activated lever that opens a small hole in the recorder. The idea is that it lowers the pitch to compensate when you play harder, giving you a little more dynamic range without getting way out of tune. But that's rare enough that I've only seen one, and I don't know whether it works with lower notes.

I suppose this should be in orchestration section, but can you list all the recorders and their ranges?

Common ranges of all recorders I'm aware of are:

Contrabass: C2-D4
Bass: F2-G4
Tenor: C3-D5
Alto: F3-G5
Soprano: C4-D6
Sopranino: F4-G6

I would point out that the recorder is such an easy instrument to learn and so inexpensive these days, and the real instrument is always so much more expressive than even the best samples, that...you might be better off just buying one and learning how to play it [[:|]] [[;)]] [:D]...just a thought of course.

matto

Yes, but there remains the slight problem of recording. And mixing. And reverb. And incorporation in orchestral context. And the fact that there are so many other instruments one could say that about. Like why the hell am I using triangle samples. I could, with diligent practice, become a triangle virtuoso. Well maybe not virtuoso, but at least a competent professional triangle player. However I haven't made that leap. Same story with the anvil, the birdwhistle and the siren.

Thanks for those ranges. I love the consort (is that the correct term?) which uses a complete set of recorders. Especially striking is something with an involved bass line. Those big recorders are marvelous sounding on something like that.

How are you fingering the high D (on the C instruments), Matto? The only way I know of to get above the C is to close the bottom of the tube with your leg for the C#, and that's hazardous to your front teeth!

By the way, it's hard to get good on any instrument. I say that as both a snob and as a recorder player with a stupendous ego. [:)]

You can pick up the basics of recorder playing easily, but you're going to be out of tune and your breath control is going to suck. I've been playing all my life, and my breath control goes when I don't practice all the time.

And i should add that good soprano recorders, which are made out of hardwood, are at least $350. It's not a toy instrument!

[huff]

Don't forget:

KENA, Tin and Low whistles are very important in orchestral writing!!!

PLEASE, Herb!!!!!!!!!!!!!

@Another User said:

By the way, it's hard to get good on any instrument. I say that as both a snob and as a recorder player with a stupendous ego. [:)]
You can pick up the basics of recorder playing easily, but you're going to be out of tune and your breath control is going to suck. I've been playing all my life, and my breath control goes when I don't practice all the time.

Whoa, calm down, Nick [[[;)]]] [[[;)]]] , I meant no offense [:O]ops: . I agree that to be a virtuoso recorder player you have to practice just as much as you would on any other instrument...I'm far from a virtuoso, but I find it easy to play and record parts (on a $30 plastic yamaha) that sound way better than the best samples I've used (the same goes for the pennywhistle, by the way). Sure, I have to do some comping, maybe even autotune a note or two, but the result is so much more "alive" than when you use samples.
Not to mention how you can creatively "abuse" recorders and make them sound like a variety of ethnic flutes...try that with samples.
I've found that even my non-musical clients can often tell if I'm using all samples, but if I put even just 2-3 real instruments in my tracks, it makes the whole thing sound real to them.
So I'd rather spend 2 hours practicing the recorder or pennywhistle or accordion part I've written than spend them tweaking my sampled recorder etc. part in an ultimately futile attempt to make it sound 100% real.
Just my personal preference.

matto

I'm not really offended, Matto. Note the [:D].

Now I want to understand the high D, but I'm confuused.

Using L 1234 (thumb through 4th finger) and R 2345 (index finger through pinkie), please explain which holes get covered.

Never mind, I found it (one of those things my fingers knew but my brain didn't). You're absolutely right.

On my recorder it's pinched thumb, no little finger, and both middle fingers lifted.

But it's very shrill, so you wouldn't normally use it.

This flat-out statement that "the real instrument is always so much more expressive than even the best samples" is not true. Of either recorders or other instruments.

Have you ever had a poor amateur orchestra play your piece and compared that to a VSL performance for example? The samples are a thousand times more expressive. The real situation is not as simple as these sweeping statements.

@Nick Batzdorf said:

Never mind, I found it (one of those things my fingers knew but my brain didn't). You're absolutely right.

On my recorder it's pinched thumb, no little finger, and both middle fingers lifted.

But it's very shrill, so you wouldn't normally use it.

Yeah I agree...for practical purposes, they really have a 2 octave range. Just wanted to be accurate and not make sweeping statements such as "all recorders have a 2 octave range"... [[[;)]]] [[[;)]]] [:D]

@William said:

This flat-out statement that "the real instrument is always so much more expressive than even the best samples" is not true. Of either recorders or other instruments.

You're right, but I think you know what I'm trying to say. Maybe I should have said "the real instrument always has so much more expressive potential than even the best samples".
And I still believe that on certain instruments, such as the recorder, pennywhistle or (if you're a keyboard player) accordion, that potential is relatively easily exploited, leading to more life-like recordings.
But...maybe praising the expressive qualities of real acoustic instruments is out of line on a forum dedicated to discussing high-quality sample libraries... [[;)]] [:)]

Pennywhistle and accordian? PENNYWHISTLE AND ACCORDIAN?!

HUFF! [8o|]

@Nick Batzdorf said:

Pennywhistle and accordian? PENNYWHISTLE AND ACCORDIAN?!

HUFF! [8o|]

[:D] [:D] [:D] [:D]

By the way, you can't get the C# below that high D without doing the leg trick.

yeah, I agree with that maybe a little.

Though I am a near fanatic believer in the potential for perfecting samples to the point of creating idealized performances - from a composer's standpoint - that are superior to most live ones. But this has brought up an entire can of worms that is OT obviously.

BTW I am president of the World Accordion Defense League (WADL) and we will see you in court. Also the Pennywhistle Enthusiasts of Earth (PEE) have contacted me already and they are not happy.

I've done a fair amount of new music for recorder which demands extended techniques (multiphonics, glissandi, etc) as well as extended range. You can (given a hurricane-force gust from the old lungs) get a D6 out of an alto with fingering 12467 with 1 and 7 half-holed. It ain't pretty and is useless for melodic playing, but is great as a "special effect" kind of note. Clean shorts not provided.
Nick, you're right about teeth, man! David Munrow had a recorder made by von Huene with a bell key operated by the R thumb, and his teeth were in great shape!

Ha - I'm digging out my recorders...

best,
John