@Another User said:

By the way, it's hard to get good on any instrument. I say that as both a snob and as a recorder player with a stupendous ego. [:)]
You can pick up the basics of recorder playing easily, but you're going to be out of tune and your breath control is going to suck. I've been playing all my life, and my breath control goes when I don't practice all the time.

Whoa, calm down, Nick [[[;)]]] [[[;)]]] , I meant no offense [:O]ops: . I agree that to be a virtuoso recorder player you have to practice just as much as you would on any other instrument...I'm far from a virtuoso, but I find it easy to play and record parts (on a $30 plastic yamaha) that sound way better than the best samples I've used (the same goes for the pennywhistle, by the way). Sure, I have to do some comping, maybe even autotune a note or two, but the result is so much more "alive" than when you use samples.
Not to mention how you can creatively "abuse" recorders and make them sound like a variety of ethnic flutes...try that with samples.
I've found that even my non-musical clients can often tell if I'm using all samples, but if I put even just 2-3 real instruments in my tracks, it makes the whole thing sound real to them.
So I'd rather spend 2 hours practicing the recorder or pennywhistle or accordion part I've written than spend them tweaking my sampled recorder etc. part in an ultimately futile attempt to make it sound 100% real.
Just my personal preference.

matto

I'm not really offended, Matto. Note the [:D].

Now I want to understand the high D, but I'm confuused.

Using L 1234 (thumb through 4th finger) and R 2345 (index finger through pinkie), please explain which holes get covered.

Never mind, I found it (one of those things my fingers knew but my brain didn't). You're absolutely right.

On my recorder it's pinched thumb, no little finger, and both middle fingers lifted.

But it's very shrill, so you wouldn't normally use it.

This flat-out statement that "the real instrument is always so much more expressive than even the best samples" is not true. Of either recorders or other instruments.

Have you ever had a poor amateur orchestra play your piece and compared that to a VSL performance for example? The samples are a thousand times more expressive. The real situation is not as simple as these sweeping statements.

@Nick Batzdorf said:

Never mind, I found it (one of those things my fingers knew but my brain didn't). You're absolutely right.

On my recorder it's pinched thumb, no little finger, and both middle fingers lifted.

But it's very shrill, so you wouldn't normally use it.

Yeah I agree...for practical purposes, they really have a 2 octave range. Just wanted to be accurate and not make sweeping statements such as "all recorders have a 2 octave range"... [[[;)]]] [[[;)]]] [:D]

@William said:

This flat-out statement that "the real instrument is always so much more expressive than even the best samples" is not true. Of either recorders or other instruments.

You're right, but I think you know what I'm trying to say. Maybe I should have said "the real instrument always has so much more expressive potential than even the best samples".
And I still believe that on certain instruments, such as the recorder, pennywhistle or (if you're a keyboard player) accordion, that potential is relatively easily exploited, leading to more life-like recordings.
But...maybe praising the expressive qualities of real acoustic instruments is out of line on a forum dedicated to discussing high-quality sample libraries... [[;)]] [:)]

Pennywhistle and accordian? PENNYWHISTLE AND ACCORDIAN?!

HUFF! [8o|]

@Nick Batzdorf said:

Pennywhistle and accordian? PENNYWHISTLE AND ACCORDIAN?!

HUFF! [8o|]

[:D] [:D] [:D] [:D]

By the way, you can't get the C# below that high D without doing the leg trick.

yeah, I agree with that maybe a little.

Though I am a near fanatic believer in the potential for perfecting samples to the point of creating idealized performances - from a composer's standpoint - that are superior to most live ones. But this has brought up an entire can of worms that is OT obviously.

BTW I am president of the World Accordion Defense League (WADL) and we will see you in court. Also the Pennywhistle Enthusiasts of Earth (PEE) have contacted me already and they are not happy.

I've done a fair amount of new music for recorder which demands extended techniques (multiphonics, glissandi, etc) as well as extended range. You can (given a hurricane-force gust from the old lungs) get a D6 out of an alto with fingering 12467 with 1 and 7 half-holed. It ain't pretty and is useless for melodic playing, but is great as a "special effect" kind of note. Clean shorts not provided.
Nick, you're right about teeth, man! David Munrow had a recorder made by von Huene with a bell key operated by the R thumb, and his teeth were in great shape!

Ha - I'm digging out my recorders...

best,
John

@William said:

BTW I am president of the World Accordion Defense League (WADL) and we will see you in court. Also the Pennywhistle Enthusiasts of Earth (PEE) have contacted me already and they are not happy.

As first under-secretary of Accordionists Royal Society (England) I pledge our support.
God know what the Banjo Union Management will make of this...

David Munrow...

What a musician he was! I heard him in person and he was like a man possessed. Very rarely have I heard sound like that out of any instrument, let alone those medieval ones he mastered to a point beyond any other human being.

@William said:

David Munrow...

He was an inspiration for me. I remember him saying that medieval and renaissance instruments, when compared to their modern cousins seem so restricted in terms of dynamics and range etc, were (given their restrictions) absolutely perfect - the "sweet, soft, watery" sound of a gemshorn for example is unlike any other instrument, even though it has a range of only a fifth.
That statement has been a tremendous influence on my aesthetic development.

best,
John

I agree with that completely. Other examples of that same principle - the ocarina which has such a mesmerizingly soft tone, or the Crummhorn which is crude and coarse but extremely lively and colorful, or the clarinetto which had some of the power of the trumpet but with a darker, mellower and wilder tone. It is interesting how wild and colorful in general the medieval ensembles could be, especially compared with the relatively colorless and restricted quality of the more refined and "proper" classical era.

@William said:

I agree with that completely. Other examples of that same principle - the ocarina which has such a mesmerizingly soft tone, or the Crummhorn which is crude and coarse but extremely lively and colorful, or the clarinetto which had some of the power of the trumpet but with a darker, mellower and wilder tone. It is interesting how wild and colorful in general the medieval ensembles could be, especially compared with the relatively colorless and restricted quality of the more refined and "proper" classical era.

I too love medieval to baroque instruments, and would love to see samples, particularly of those hard to find instruments (along with ethnic instruments sampled to VSL standards)...of course now the Krummhorn society will probably come after me for trying to put its members out of business [[;)]] [:D]

Btw William, could you enlighten me as to what the Clarinetto looks and sounds like? So far I've only heard of the Clarino (a term for the valveless baroque trumpet and it's high register) and the Cornetto (a weird instrument that uses a brass-like mouthpiece with a woodwind-like body, which sounds like a cross between a baroque trumpet and baroque oboe and was often use in an ensemble with trombones).
Got any links or pictures?
Thanks.

matto

The Yamaha VL1 has a Krumhorn patch that's amazing. It sounds just like indigestion. [:)]

Funny you should mention it but I heard that same 'patch' coming from the table next to me at Thanksgiving dinner tonight and believe me it wasn't generated by a Yamaha!

Yes, clarino is just natural trumpet played in its high register to obtain more intervals due to closer partials - the "clarino range." I encountered the term clarinetto a long time ago, but was referring to the same instrument you mentioned - the cornetto played with a brass type mouthpiece but with a pierced body like a clarinet. Clarinetto means little trumpet, and early clarinets were sometimes used as substitutes for cornets so this may account for the confusion between the two.

Another more bizarre related instrument is the serpent, which was the bass of this family and was in fact used by Bernard Herrmann in "Journey to the Center of the Earth." This of course we need the VSL to sample immediately, with full legato implementation. Berlioz described its tone as "frigid and abominable blaring."

Bruce Dickey is the man to watch for virtuoso cornetto these days - there is a CD on Accent called "Quel Lascivissimo Cornetto" (or something close) which is stunning.

http://www.cornetto.org.uk/cornetto.html

best,
John