What is "perf_rep (repetition performance)"?

[BachRules]

Where do the "perf_rep (repetition performance)" articulations fit in the general scheme?

In the Solo Strings manual, p. 11, I see the Standard solo violin, for example, includes articulations: "PERF REPETITION -- Legato slow, staccato, spiccato". How is the perf_rep legato different from perf_legato? How is the perf_rep staccato different from the plain staccato articulation? If I want a staccato or legato sound, what should I consider as I choose between the "perf_rep" options and the regular staccato and legato options?

Is there documentation or a video tutorial that details the perf_rep articulations? Thank you.

[Beat Kaufmann]

@BachRules said:

How is the perf_rep legato different from perf_legato?

Hi BachRules

The legato-articulation normally adds the sound between two different notes.

Let's assume you move from D to E without stopping to play. So will get a sound between the two notes which comes from valves, fingers or something else depending on the instrument.

 All "perf-rep-articulations" ...

are different played notes which will be connected to each other with the same pitch.  

I believe there are 8 different notes of the same pitch until the loop starts from new (need to check it once more).

The meaning is not to produce the "machine-gun-effect" which you will get when you are going to repete always the same sample several times.

If you don't have such perf-repetition articulations you can try to supress this machin-gun-effect by

varying the velocity >>> see and listen to an example here (No.33)

Now:  Because you can play same-pitch-notes in different tempos you need to have different perf-rep articulations.

Those for a slower playing (legato/portato slow),

for faster speeds  (portato fast/staccato slow)

and repetitions for the fastest play (stac fast/spic (strings)).

If you listen to the following articulation-pieces you will recognize from 00:29 - 00:42 those perf-repetitions.

http://www.beat-kaufmann.com/VSL_New_VI_U/BK_Heckelphone_Single_Instrument.mp3

and http://www.beat-kaufmann.com/VSL_New_VI_U/BK_Clarinet_Ctrb_Single_Instrument.mp3

BTW you also can make out the legato-connection-sounds between the fast played notes in the end of the pieces...

Here a further example with the cornet from 01:07 - 01:13

http://www.musik-produktion-createc.ch/downloads/bk_spbr_cornet.mp3

There are also repetitions with a fix speed.

They sound even more realistic but you only can use them with their recorded speed.

VIPro users can strech or compress them within a small range.

We also have 8 repetitions there. If you only use 4 reptitions there you press the key for the length of three notes and the last of the four desired notes will be played by the release sample.

Hope that cleared up all the expressions a bit

Beat

[BachRules]

Thanks very much for the detailed explanation. It is very helpful.

Before I feel I can use these features to the fullest, I have a further question. Suppose I have a melody (for example, Solo Violin, since I have that one) which goes c-d-d-e; and suppose I want: 

• a perf_legato connection from the c to the d;
• a perf_rep connection from the d to the following d; and
• a perf_legato connection from the d to the e.

Is this possible? Will I get that if I:

1. Load the standard Violin Solo Preset;
2. Select the "Perf-Legato Speed+porta" Matrix;
3. Note-On the c;
4. Note-On the d and then Note-Off the c;
5. Keyswitch D2 to select the "Perf-Repetitions Combi" Matrix;
6. Note-Off the first d and then Note-On the second d;
7. Keyswitch C2 to select the "Perf-Legato Speed+porta" Matrix; and
8. Note-On the e and then Note-Off the d?

Is this the way to mix perf-legato and perf-rep articulations in a single melody? Or, how else can I mix perf-legato and perf-rep articulations in a single melody?

[MassMover]

In general you got it right.

You do not necessarily have to overlap the notes on perf_leg, just the gap should be below 50ms (can be adjusted in VI Pro).

I think you should not overlap notes with Perf_rep.

If you have a note repeated only once (2 identical pitches in a row) during a legato phrase, you do not necessarily have to swich to a perf_rep articulation. The perf_leg have 2 alternations themselves, so there won't be a machinegun effect. The perf_rep patches are mostly used when there are at least 3 notes of the same pitch in a row.

[Beat Kaufmann]

@BachRules said:

Before I feel I can use these features to the fullest, I have a further question. Suppose I have a melody (for example, Solo Violin, since I have that one) which goes c-d-d-e; and suppose I want: 

• a perf_legato connection from the c to the d;
• a perf_rep connection from the d to the following d; and
• a perf_legato connection from the d to the e.

Hello again

I choose the samples because of their sound and never because of their name or because of a special notation.

Your example c-d-d-e could have several solutions of course - also depending on the tempo and the volume.

Listen the example (wav-file 8kB). It shows some possibilities how I would play your notes:

1. Legato-legato / gap (simulates the changing bow direction) Legato-Legato.

         C   -    D                                                                        D     -    C

2. Sustain-Legato / gap / Sustain-Legato

        C     -     D                   D      -    C

3. Détaché long-Legato /gap / Détaché long-Legato (faster play)

4. Détaché long-Legato /gap / Détaché long-Legato (even faster play)

5. sfz-fast Legato /gap / sfz-fast Legato (faster play more agressive)

5b sfz-fast Legato /gap / sfz-fast Legato (+1 Octave)

Take into account that we have a change of the articulation between every two notes! (Not with the first example) Quit a lot!

But when you listen to result it sounds quit good (real) as well.

Attention: Make sure that you always choose the legato articulation during the play of the single articulation so that you already get the legato sound between the single note and the following legato note.

Unfortunately I don't know the VSL-Presets I have my own presets.

Best

Beat

[BachRules]

@MassMover said:

In general you got it right.

You do not necessarily have to overlap the notes on perf_leg, just the gap should be below 50ms (can be adjusted in VI Pro).

I think you should not overlap notes with Perf_rep.

If you have a note repeated only once (2 identical pitches in a row) during a legato phrase, you do not necessarily have to swich to a perf_rep articulation. The perf_leg have 2 alternations themselves, so there won't be a machinegun effect. The perf_rep patches are mostly used when there are at least 3 notes of the same pitch in a row.

I hadn't known about the 50 ms leeway or the 2 alternations provided by perf_legato. Thank you very much.

[BachRules]

@Another User said:

... I never use samples because of their name ... only because of their sound....

I imagine that is the best procedure, and I hope to be able to do that some day. I am just starting out with VSL now, so I have a bit of learning to do before I even know how to find all the sounds it offers (regardless of their names). Thanks again. Be back tomorrow.

[BachRules]

Hi Beat,

Very interesting variety in your demos. I've bookmarked your website for future reference. Thank you.

[BachRules]

Now I'm working on a four-note, repeated figure: b, c, a, e, b, c, a, e, etc., all 16th notes (Ennio Morricone) and wondering is there a way to get sample-rotation, by somehow utilizing the perf_rep functionality? Is this as easy as playing the figure on a perf_rep patch and VI will rotate the samples automatically even though it's not all the same note? I'm not trusting my ears on this.

[BachRules]

@BachRules said:

... is there a way to get sample-rotation, by somehow utilizing the perf_rep functionality?

I think it would be great if this wasn't a mystery. VSL, will you please help me understand how this product functions?

[Paul]

Hi BachRules,

You are right, you can simply trigger performance repetitions for this. Did you watch the video tutorial on Performance Repetitions yet (also works with the "normal" Vienna Instruments, last video on this page)?

Best,

Paul

[BachRules]

@Paul said:

... You are right, you can simply trigger performance repetitions for this.

Thanks for the info.

[quote=Paul]Did you watch the

I hadn't watched the VI PRO videos, having only VI-normal. I just watched it, but it's about working with the row of 9 red dots in VI PRO, and there's no row of red dots in VI-normal, so I don't see how I could do anything described in that video. ?

[Paul]

Hi again, 

My bad, I overlooked that there is no way to deactivate certain repetition notes in VI, that only works in VI PRO. But the repetition patches can be played back as they are in VI. 

Best, 

Paul

[BachRules]

Ok. Thanks again.

[mschmitt]

@Beat Kaufmann said:

Attention: Make sure that you always choose the legato articulation during the play of the single articulation so that you already get the legato sound between the single note and the following legato note.

Are you saying that if I play Detache-Legato, what I will hear will actualy be Detache-Legato transition note-Legato? As opposed to hearing Detache-Legato Starting Note.

If so, then that is very cool! I had just assumed that when you switched to a legato articulation, that the first note played would be the "starting note" of that articulation, then the rest of the notes would have the "transition notes" played between them. Have I underestimated the power of VSL?

Thanks for all of your very informative posts Beat!

Michael

[DG]

@Beat Kaufmann said:

Attention: Make sure that you always choose the legato articulation during the play of the single articulation so that you already get the legato sound between the single note and the following legato note.

Are you saying that if I play Detache-Legato, what I will hear will actualy be Detache-Legato transition note-Legato? As opposed to hearing Detache-Legato Starting Note.

Yes assuming that you don't leave too big a gap between the notes. FWIW if you actually want a start note, play the detache note short, hold down the sustain pedal (to sustain the detache to its full length) and you'll get a start note afterwards, instead of one with the legato transition.

DG

[MassMover]

@mschmitt said:

Have I underestimated the power of VSL?

Indeed, you did!

[Beat Kaufmann]

[quote=mschmitt]Are you saying that if I play Detache-Legato, what I will hear will actualy be Detache-

The legato Articulation connects two notes with a certain "crossing sound". You can hear fingers, valves and of course the special sound between the change of two notes.

These Legato Sounds are making VSL so real sounding. Normally this "two-note-connecting-sound" is triggered when the gap between two notes are smaller than 50ms.

So I believe you got it the right way: You can start with Sustain change to legato play then the legato articulation with no gap between the sustain tone and the legato tone and you will get:

Sustain - "connection sound" - Legato-Articulation.

So you are able to start a group of 4 legato notes with another starting note for giving an accent: sfz-legato-legato-legato ...

And you will have the legato-feeling also between sfz and the following legato note...

Listen to this example (Handel Violinsonata). The "Legato Articulation" would often be too weak for all the starting notes - specially with the second and fast part of the piece..

As you said: Cool!!!

Best Beat

[mschmitt]

@DG said:

FWIW if you actually want a start note, play the detache note short, hold down the sustain pedal (to sustain the detache to its full length) and you'll get a start note afterwards, instead of one with the legato transition.

I think I understand what you are saying DG, but let me verify. Are you saying to force a start note, play a detache note but don't send a note off message for it -> switch to a legato patch -> send note on for new note which will be a "starting note"  for the legato patch?

I think there was another thread about starting notes recently, and you offered the suggestion to add a button to VI that would force a start note to play. I think this would be great if you could assign it to a cc button and when ever VI recieves an ON for it AND the next note played belongs to a performance patch, it would force a start note. This would be handy for both playing live and for editing in a DAW.

[BachRules]

In the orchestra violins, patch "Vl-14_perf-rep_leg-sl", I'm not understanding why "leg" is part of the name, since it doesn't act legato in any way? Is it legato in some way I'm overlooking?