Help with Horizons Solo Strings dynamics?

[gugliel]

Using the Horizons Solo Strings on Gigastudio 3.0 Orchestra, I get strong contrast in dynamics for a tiny difference in note velocity:

Example recording: http://mysite.verizon.net/guglielmo/VC_mV_sus_Bb3_88-90.mp3

Repeated Bb3 at dynamic level (key velocity) 88 and 90. Solo 'cello instrument, VC_mV_sus (but I found the same in others too).

The controllers used: cc 1 = 0 cc 7 = 112 cc 8 = 0 cc 10 = 74 cc 11 = 110

Don't know if this is a problem in the solo strings or in how they load into gigastudio 3? Can someone help with getting a slight variation in dynamics without the big bump on the 2nd and 3rd note?

The line is written (velocity only, all else is the same)
Bb3: 88 90 92 88 84 92 94

The line sounds something like this (listen to the mp3):

Bb3: 65 110 110 65 65 110 110

Any suggestions?

[jbm]

Don't know if I quite understand the question, but it's not really how "large" the difference in velocity is, since even a single number higher can cross a velocity switch threshold... With VSL, my experience is not so much that it gets much louder, but it certainly changes in colour a great deal, when switching from say the perf-leg_p to the perf-leg_f. Solo instruments don't tend to sound very good with velocity cross-fades, since the difference in the two samples becomes too obvious, so they're generally "switched"....

Maybe this is the problem? Crossing the 'switch' velocity?

Anyway, you can get around it, to a certain degree, by adjusting the amount of influence velocity has on volume (I think it's "attenuation" in GSEdit), and also by applying dynamic filtering.

Hope this helps some.

J.

[gugliel]

Yes, it is a keyswitch issues (and not very well matched timbres between 'f' and 'ff'). Thanks for the hints to work around.

The odd thing for me was that the keyswitch happened at about 89, while in GSEdit supposedly the keyswitch should have been at 96 -- seems that in GS3 the 'velodity curve' is set to non-linear, and this modifies key velocities somehow. I'll play with the attenuation settings, while i'm changing everything to have 2 semitone pitch bend (WHAT A WASTE OF TIME, VSL!!!!)

May have to change the only 'human' part of my midi work: the application of touch-sensitive velocity to every note during step entry!

[PaulNicholls]

Hello Gugliel

I am interested in purchasing the Solo String Instruments by VSL and I was a bit disturbed by this post in regards to problems in abrupt changes in colour or apparent dynamic level over small changes in velocity. I currently use the Dan Dean Solo strings and have gotten some relatively good results despite some huge limitations. I would have thought that a library that is so vast in the number of samples available would also have basic issues of playability solved too. I would be very interested to know what users of the library think of it especially in relation to other sample collections. I have been very disappointed in my purchases of sample libraries in the past. In particular the Garritan Strings had many excellent tremolo and spiccato samples but the main legato string sound was nasty and thin and lacking in real expressiveness. I am concerned that, despite excellent reviews, there will be many devils in the details.

[Dietz]

Paul,

Welcome to the Vienna Symphonic Library!

Please be aware that many opinions you read here are based on personal preferences. You may very well encounter two people with seemingly the same problem, but completely contradictory wishes how they would like to see (hear) them solved. (... which is a good thing, otherwise everbody's music would sound the same :-] ...)

We welcome constructive critics very much, especially in this forum. But please be aware of the fact that we would have to customize every single delivered library to fit each and every musical (and pragmatical) approach to virtual orchestration. - This is not very practical, of course, and would make the whole thing extremely expensive.

I would strongly suggest to get a _educated_ demonstration at a dealer near you, and to listen to the massive amount of demos on this site to make up your mind.

-> http://vsl.co.at/english/pages/demos/start.htm

All the best,

/Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library

[herb]

Gugliel, don't know what you mean with keyswitches.
Generally all VSL instruments do have a velocity splits at value 88/89.

If you don't want to jump to the next velocity, I would recommend to programm minor volume adjustments with expression an keep the velocities in the range of one velocity range. For example 55-88.
To adjust the velocity curve won't help a lot, because it's more a question of timbre and not of loudness.

Pitch bend is not programmed, because the giga pitch algorythm sounds very artificial to our ears, for me it's unusable. Further, if too much loded intruments do have active pitch bend settings, it could effect processor performance.

best
Herb

[gugliel]

Paul, you have gotten some observations from the authors/forum moderators. My own opinion as a user is that even though it could have been still better, the VSL Horizons Solo Strings are a good package with much to appreciate. There are carelessnesses, tuning mismatches, and color mis-matches throughout the instruments, however.

[edit]For perspective, I own GOS and AO in addition to the Solo Strings, have been using samples in gigastudio for nearly three years and hardware synthesizers for many years, and have spent a great deal of time reviewing demos for other packages -- so, I'm at least an experienced user if not perfectly an expert. [/edit]

Another purely personal opinion is that the development of even the best sample packages has been a cottage industry, not subject to the kind of quality control a korg or yamaha or young chang would put into a product as a matter of course.

Herb, you should put in pitch bend settings. When YOUR recorded sounds are out of tune, and they ARE sometimes, pitch bend is necessary!!!!

[herb]

Which samples are out of tune?

Generally tuning adjustements should be done in gigaeditor using the "fine tuning" options. Giga 3 offers alo a great feature: you can save tuning templates. So if you want to alter the tuning to a different tuning scale, you can setup this tuningscale, save it, and apply it to all other articulations.

best
Herb

[gugliel]

To quote Dietz, who seemed to be criticising my criticism

@Another User said:

This is not very practical, of course, and would make the whole thing extremely expensive.

-- yes, it is time consuming to identify them all, but I've made a start. (Would have MUCH preferred the VSL staff to do it!!) Many of the samples change pitch, so simply altering a fixed fine tuning doesn't help, it only puts the out-of-tuneness at a different rhythmic point.

Here are a few in the solo cello that I marked for my own purposes as being too out-of-tune to use without correction (C3 is lowest 'cello note):

VC_mV_0'5s-1+2 ( 1st dimension ):
Eb3 mp (2nd velocity
Eb3 ff (4th velocity)
Bb3 ff
E4 mf
F#4 ff
F5 ff

VC_mV_sus
D3 ff
A3 ff
Bb3 ff
C4 ff
C#4 mf
D4 mf and ff
F#4 ff
G#4 ff
Bb4 ff
B4 ff
E5 ff
F5 ff
G#5 ff
Bb5 pp
C6 mp

VC_perf-leg_f (top keyswitch, sus vibrato)
Eb3
E3
A3
D5
G5
(1st keyswitch, m2d up)
C#4
F#5
(2nd keyswitch, M2d up)
C#4
F#4
G4


For the future, imo, a developer needs to give the performers a harmonic reference in order to play in tune. It's not enough to try to hold a steady pitch without any musical reference, but to play a tuned fifth or third can be made much more steady.

Now, this message took about 15 minutes to put together -- shouldn't be necessary for each user to provide this kind of detail.

[michi]

@gugliel said:

For the future, imo, a developer needs to give the performers a harmonic reference in order to play in tune. It's not enough to try to hold a steady pitch without any musical reference, but to play a tuned fifth or third can be made much more steady.

Now, this message took about 15 minutes to put together -- shouldn't be necessary for each user to provide this kind of detail.

i respect your opinion, gugliel, but i think your point of view is really ridiculous. nothing is perfect, neither me nor all of our samples. what you are looking for is a sinus-wave, not a sound played by humans. [[;)]]

[herb]

Just checked the mV_0'5s and the sustains and the tuning is OK.

You can be sure, that we know how the musicians have to be supported during recording sessions. We do this job since 4 years, each day for several hours.

Generally each live performance of any stringquartett is more out of tune (performed by top players) than a programming with our library.
So it would be more understanable for me, if somebody would like to detune some notes sometimes.

Maybe it's interesting for you, here you have our frequency tuning list.

http://www.vsl.co.at/upload/forum/vsl_frequency_list.xls

best
Herb

[mathis]

Gugliemo, are you German? HAHAHA [:D]
Sorry, couldn´t resist. I´m always highly amused when I recognize personality traits which usually are assigned to us Germans.

(no offense intended [[;)]] )

[jbm]

Hello All,

I have to chime in once again with my vote that the Solo Strings are not just a little better, more realistic, etc, than other libraries, they are absolutely in a class by themselves!

When you really get tweaking, and make use of the full range of articulations, they just come to life. I personally have *never* heard sampled solo strings sound this expressive and realistic. I'd say it's 80% down to the performance instruments, since these brilliant samples have an almost tangible physicality to them -- they really demand that you envision the player in performance, which of course always makes for more expressive, idiomatic writing. In my experience, working with the Solo Strings has become almost like having a collaborator...

J.

[esperlad]

I also want to state how much I enjoying using them. I have never noticed any tuning problems, but I have don't perfect pitch.

[William]

There ARE no tuning problems. All the Solo Strings sound excellent in tuning, AND dynamic consistency. The so-called inconsistency is the result of DIFFERENCE EXPRESSIONS!! That is the whole point.