hmmm, do not think it does matter here what Steinberg charges. VSL chose this copy protection so they are responsible for pricings, not Steinberg IMHO. They are not a victim, but a customer. (which in case of Steinberg -in my past experience -really seem to make not much difference -but again, thats VSL's problem. they are free to quit )

personally I consider this fee insulting. eLicenser is the key with the worsed convenience for the customer -compared to iLok online license storage etc. -and on Mac it is troublesome anyways.

knowing this I might really have to think over which products I license in the future. there are companies that have ways more customer friendly licensing policies.

best

I think it would be fair if they made an official statement - of course 20 € per license is also some kind of handling fee, however, it pretty fast gets really expensive. calculating how much that was for my current key with vienna licenses is not encouraging. Also, a span of two years warranty for the key seems quite -also considered the time it takes syncrosoft to transfer licenses from one key to another -which I would describe as painfully slow. and of course there is also risk with that super management software, to ruin something.

just my thoughts

best

Well I love VSL. But I too would be furious if I had to go through all the above and if I understand correctly - pay €20 per licence. Furious. 

@Christian Marcussen said:

Well I love VSL. But I too would be furious if I had to go through all the above and if I understand correctly - pay €20 per licence. Furious. 

Agreed! I have around 20 full library collections, several download instruments and other Vienna software, all on one key. (Because everything runs through MIR). Sometimes I have to take the dongle out, for mulitple reasons. I can't even imagine having issues like the ones mentioned above. Apart from the cost, I use VSL for work which I am bound with very tight deadlines. I simply CANNOT afford to fail on delivering to my clients. Infact one of the reasons I love VSL, is because the software is rock solid! When thinking about this, I think Syncrosoft and every other similar company should consider building military grade dongles made of other material than plastic. And also having the ability to pull-in the dongle interface plug, like some USB pen drives available on the market. As much as this might sound a bit over the top, after considering the amount of money spent on software licences and how much time, money and hassle it takes to bring them back, I guess it all starts to make sense.

There are 4 important questions that VSL need to answer:

1. Do you charge €20 per license for EVERY replacement code? Including individual instrument downloads? And therefore people might be paying over €1,000 if their USB key dies and is over 2 years old?

3. Could you please include specific warnings about the 2 year warranty, and the exact costs of replacement if a USB key gets over 2 years old, when people buy software, so that they are clearly warned?

4. Could you email customers when their USB key is getting close to 2 years old, as a reminder to buy a new one, with another warning about the costs in the event of a failure?

My point is that the very high costs in themselves are not the main problem. The main problem is that VSL have a 2 year warranty and an extremely expensive replacement program, WITHOUT TELLING ANYONE, and therefore customers have no ability to plan ahead and do the sensible thing - buy a new key every 2 years and regularly transfer their licenses across to avoid getting caught out.

Is this too much to ask?!

 Perhaps I can make a suggestion for VSL to consider.  They could introduce a kind of license protection scheme.

If a solution is to buy a new key every two years at €24 (€12 per year), then maybe a system could be introduced that allows users to pay €10 per year to VSL to be part of the scheme that would replace any lost licenses and key free of all costs to the user (faulty key only - would have to exclude lost/stolen keys).

If VSL had a thousand users take this up, that would give them a fund of €10,000.  Assuming the keys don't fail that often, this may or may not be enough funds,  so if this principle is good, VSL would know how many faulty keys they see each year, and would know what fund they would need to cover this. 

Think of it more, as all the users getting together to contribute towards each others license replacements.

I would be would be quite happy to pay €10 per year for this security, although VSL are the only people that could come up with a workable figure.    

@andyjh said:

 Perhaps I can make a suggestion for VSL to consider.  They could introduce a kind of license protection scheme.

If a solution is to buy a new key every two years at €24 (€12 per year), then maybe a system could be introduced that allows users to pay €10 per year to VSL to be part of the scheme that would replace any lost licenses and key free of all costs to the user (faulty key only - would have to exclude lost/stolen keys).

If VSL had a thousand users take this up, that would give them a fund of €10,000.  Assuming the keys don't fail that often, this may or may not be enough funds,  so if this principle is good, VSL would know how many faulty keys they see each year, and would know what fund they would need to cover this. 

Think of it more, as all the users getting together to contribute towards each others license replacements.

I would be would be quite happy to pay €10 per year for this security, although VSL are the only people that could come up with a workable figure.    

I think this is a great idea! I would happily spend 10 or 20 EUR per year for such kind of insurance/protection! I wouldn't be able to afford any of the above mentioned handling fees for all of my Vienna licenses if my key gets broken/damaged. I really wasn't aware of that danger and it makes me re-think any further investments in VSL stuff, too - so your suggestion is really good!

So here's my voice, too: Vienna - please consider such kind of insurance fee!

Marco

I also like this license scheme idea. As I said previously, something so prestigous requires more protection. I still recomend that elicencer build stronger, more heavy duty dongles. A couple weeks ago, while I was taking my license key from my MIR machine to another pc to register more licences, the key accidentally fell off my hand. It ended up in 3 pieces. I was able to assemble it and luckily, it worked just fine. It could have been worse. While I fully agree with a license scheme, just in case of theft or any other unpleasant reason, I prefer not to get into any hassle in the first place. Also we must not forget that having a license scheme or not, can take a considerable amount of time, in order to get everything back to its place.  I mean, although one can take medicine when being sick, its always better to avoid getting sick in the first place, when you can :-)

I think this is a brilliant idea. I would definitely be happy to pay this insurance. I reacently got a new key which I'm having delieverd soon. My old key is working fine but it's as old as late 2007. If I had to get it repaired or replaced it would cost me a lot of money. 

No response from VSL yet about whether they will improve their warnings or not.

Hello VSL!  Are you there?!

Maybe they just don't know how to say: "Steinberg charge us less than €20 per activation - we just like to add a little cut for ourselves", in a way that won't upset their customers.  Well, so fine, VSL have their hands in the Handling Fee drawer, so what?  The important thing is that they try harder to warn customers about the MASSIVE costs they might face if a Key is older than 2 years and it dies.

dagmarpiano,

The point about Steinberg not having to do as much in order to solve a license issue may be entirely valid. Me personally, I've had a great experience with VSL support- not license issues... but better than any other company (including a poor experience with steinberg once). I use Cubase and love it, I have no major quams with Steinberg either. But where I've had a poor experience with them before, and nothing but amazing support from VSL... I wonder whether your experience with Steinberg may have had more to do with them not having to lift a finger to solve a license issue.

Anyway, the real reason I decided to post here was your comment about the cloud. I'll never accept things in the cloud. Cloud means I have no control. Companies can charge fees, subscriptions for use, I'd have to be online in order to work, and all my files would be less secure than they are now. By all means, if you want less hassle and are willing to sacrifice having choices that's your option. But for me, that's an absolute no. [+o(]

-Sean

hmmm, cloud was me as well ...( more as an example that the connection of pieces of plastic junk seems like of a different epoc of IT engineering)

having no control and getting charged - that is exactly the situation with the current key as well. additinally it seems that VSL has not really too much control either. one has to pay money for a piece of plastc crap (the key) that works on a mediocre protocol (USB), and then has to worry that it does not break. it slows down and for some has even worse other ways it unpleasantly affects user experience. and for all that VSL and each customer pays a lot of money.

if that makes you feel being in control and not getting charged -good for you. some might feel differently.

mileage varies of course,

best

@Another User said:

if that makes you feel being in control and not getting charged -good for you. some might feel differently.

Again, I'm not saying USB licensers are the best choice. Personally, I'd rather there be no issues regarding licensing whatsoever. If I could have things my way I'd be running VSL on Ubuntu Linux and all my samples from all libraries in VI Pro 2.0 in some kind of open format. Either way, I think my argument deserved accurate representation and credibility so I posted this reply- but in reality I don't think we need another lengthy USB dongle debate. To date, I believe the previous dongle debate on here is still the longest thread.

The primary point I felt was worth addressing here is that VSL may not have much choice in how they address customer service on license related issues, because of the use of a dongle. If a larger percentage of VSL users experienced nothing but problems with licensing, then VSL would likely change methods. But while this system works for most people in a way that protects VSL's rights and our own, I think it's safe to say that the system isn't completely arbitrary and that the quality of VSL Support remains untainted here. I'd rather judge a company based on something that is entirely their responsibility and not shared with others. I think that's a fair and reasonable opinion regarding both VSL support and for any other company.

-Sean

I have to say this whole is issue is VERY worrisome to me as well. I have bought lots of VSL products through the years and would have my wallet fried if the dongle broke down and I had to pay these remarkably high fees per license. Just piling all the additional cost and hassle of protection schemes on top of us paying and legit users leaves one with a bitter taste in the mouth.

Reminds me of Waves' insanely unpopular WUP scheme of yesteryear, which they changed once custormers figured out what a moneyscheme it was and enraged customers hit every music forum around with cries of boycoting. Speaking of Waves, they will be changing their protection methods to cloud and/or personal USB stick and will be getting rid of the iLok, so someone has already started smelling the coffee. Punishing paying customers with expensive and user-unfriendly copyprotection schemes will bring diminishing returns in the face of quickly growing competition on the market. The alternatives are growing fast these days.

Personally I don't find their actual policy that bad, because if your dongle is less than 2 years old you pay nothing.

The BIG problem for me is that they don't make this policy clear anywhere and therefore people can get caught out. Just buy a new dongle every 2 years, and consider it to be fairly cheap insurance. You can use your spares in an emergency - they will give you demo licenses until it is properly inspected and replaced.

It surely is a huge farkup from VSL's side that such potentially high fees can go without any type of warning from their side. My point was, though, that it's bad strategy to burden your customers with high fees and the nuisance of replacing their dongles every two years (I mean, wttf?) because 1. will make your product look weaker in the face of mounting competition, and 2. make crackable alternatives all the more tempting, thus worsening the situation even further for us legit customers.

If we start to find the dongle switch every two years acceptable, then in my view we have become too complacent.

Agreed Vagn

I like that you guys are thinking of possible solutions, insurances etc... But I'm in a different camp. A customer of something as precious and expenssive as VSL (and who is in effect "renting" the samples) should never pay more than the absolute minimum possible, if anything at all. 

I have spent over $10.000 on VSL stuff and I love it. But I want premium treatment (which includes something as trivial as reponding to this thread ;))

I have sent a mail to support : NO ANSWER  !

And I think we never will.

A few days ago, I tryed to get there focus on this problem, but as I expected: NO ANSWER!

http://community.vsl.co.at/forums/p/31045/198094.aspx#198094

And this is, what makes me angry!

Ignoring us, there customers! No reaction, no offical comments, but still reading every post we are typing.

I think it´s there guideline, but with this behaivior there destroying the trust in there company!

So, I´m only a small user of VSL products at the moment (~2000 €).
At the moment I´ve stopped buying. Sorry about that, because there is much I would like to have.

regards

Torsten