Thanks for explaining. Be aware that there is also a small bug with using spacebar to start playback within VE Pro on OSX (Pro Tools). A fix has been promised very soon.
DG
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I am using VEP since v4. I use it with Pro Tools 11 now and it is an amazing app and it's integration with DAWs in a production environment is brilliant. I agree that an insert plugin would be awesome. Routing sends and returns froma single plugin would clean up work flow. In the interim, the current implementation does work, albeit a little clumsy. However, this isn't the only device or technology that has a quirk; only this one will be perfect in a future release.
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+1 to get the possibility to use inserted "VEP Audio Input" as an real insert.
I am also a VEP4 user and quite new with "Audio Input" function of VEP5.
Another useful option needed (except if I missed it), is an "Thru" button :
- When I try using VEP as a "big effect rack" (send/return setup) for reverb/delay/moduation etc, I can get audio return using additionnal Aux tracks in Pro Tools but I must mix dry and wet sound inside the VEP mixer.
- Actually audio is correctly sent to the "VEP Audio Input" Plug-in but then is cut/blocked by it on the Audio track (cannot use additionnal insert and sends after the "VEP Audio Input" Plug-in instance).
- it would be better to let the audio go through the plug-in to get the dry sound and return wet only audio through the VEP return Aux.
What do you think of such a feature ?
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The audio input is a send to VE Pro as a type of external device. The 'return' is an instrument channel from VE Pro. Is this different for PT? As typically as not, for me the input in VE Pro is assigned to its master bus, for instance the reason to send to VE Pro is for reverb. I don't necessarily create additional [output] channels on the VE Pro side so there aren't necessarily additional 'returns'.
It is not really an insert; it does not effect anything in the DAW host. It is configured in the insert manner, but it is a send to the VE Pro server (if the simplest way is utilized, one channel rather than two with a send level to the second, it is a send at unity gain). I may be just confused myself but this [then is cut/blocked by it on the Audio track (cannot use additionnal insert and sends after the "VEP Audio Input" Plug-in instance)] seems like a confusion of the concept.
IE: these *are* two different things. I don't know what 'blocked' means there. The channel in VE Pro as an effect is not the audio channel. It is conceptually the same as an outboard device in the studio. While it is instantiated as an effect, the effect is in VE Pro. VE Pro is not actually an effect in the DAW. The 'insert' is a connection to a device outside the DAW. It is two things per se.
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the audio is dry, the return is wet. What you're suggesting is completely redundant; these will not (cannot) be the same object. This is why I reiterated 'these are two separate things' above.@demozic said:
the dry sound and return wet only audio through the VEP return Aux.
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I don't know what 'blocked' means there.
I agree "Audio input" mustn't be seen as an insert but as a send. And I also agree and understand to consider VEP as an outboard effect gear.But, when you use a send in a DAW, the sent signal is a parallel path alongside the normal audio signal path. Here, the signal on the audio track is muted and there is nothing in the output of the audio track.
Also, I am using Pro Tools while you're using Cubase. Pro Tools handle objects in a different manner. A instrument plug-in is a insert plug-in like FX and so on. You can insert an instrument on any kind of track ie : Audio, Instrument, Aux (except MIDI tracks). So here, I am using a VEP plug-in instance as a FX on an Aux tracks to get FX return from one dedicated VEP mixer. So it is possible to use the mixer of VEP to make a wet/dry mix.
Anyway, I try to make a scheme so that you can understand things better :
Normal send/return setup :
Audio track (= audio file or input signal) ---> inserts ----> sends ---> Track output (dry signal)
L---> sent signal ---> FX ---> Aux track (Return / Wet signal)
VEP send/return setup :
** What I get with Pro Tools 11 **
Audio track (= audio file or input signal) ---> inserts [VEP Audio Input] -X-> sends (no signal) ---> Track output (no signal)
L> sent signal ---> VEP mixer (FX) ---> Aux track [VEP Instrument] (Return Dry/Wet signal)
( X = blocked/muted )
** What I would expect with a "thru" option **
Audio track (= audio file or input signal) ---> inserts [VEP Audio Input] ----> sends ---> Track output (Dry signal)
L> sent signal ---> VEP mixer (FX) ---> Aux track [VEP Instrument] (Return / Wet signal)
Another option is to use "normal" send / return setup of the DAW and insert "VEP Audio Input" on an Aux track (here on Pro Tools I would insert "VEP Audio Input" on a Master track) :
Audio track ---> inserts ----> sends ---> Track output (dry signal)
L--> Bus1-2 --> Master Bus1-2 [VEP Audio Input] --> VEP mixer (FX) ---> Aux [VEP Instr] (Return / Wet signal)
(Note : Master Fader track prevent from using 2 busses instead of 1)
In this case, it works fine, except when using Offline Bounce* while Online Bounce works fine.
*(I get a blank audio file, still because of a kind of blockus in signal path. But I will create another thread for that after doing further testing, and see if it is a Pro Tools only issue).
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VE Pro Audio Input is what it is. So in PT, it's named differently than it is in Cubase? VE Pro is not an FX in a DAW. It is not a real insert. Audio Input is set up that way in order to achieve the send.
"the sent signal is a parallel path alongside the normal audio signal path. Here, the signal on the audio track is muted and there is nothing in the output of the audio track." I don't get what you think is supposed to happen there. Are you saying it looks like something has muted it rather than you muting it? If so, that should not happen. It looks like you said you are trying to use VEP itself, rather than VEP Audio Input, as a send (because of the way PT looks at things), a misunderstanding. It is an instrument plug in unless you use Audio Input. You have to send midi to an instrument to have any audio from it, like any vi. If you think VEP per se is going to work as a AUX FX Send, that's mistaken. Audio Input was developed in order to accomplish this.
I don't grasp at all how this is different than how it works now. If you want a dry and a wet return from VEP, just do it. If the channel has no FX and you've assigned it an output and receive that output in the DAW, it will be simply a duplicated instance of your audio, dry. In my picture it is wet because it is placed in a bus with reverb. Are you asking about a pre vs post-fader scenario? The diagrams don't help me any more than your words. Unless 'L>sent signal...' means your VEP (not Audio Input) in a slot in PT, in which case there's no 'there', there. It won't be 'muted', it just isn't anything.@demozic said:
** What I would expect with a "thru" option **
Audio track (= audio file or input signal) ---> inserts [VEP Audio Input] ----> sends ---> Track output (Dry signal)
L> sent signal ---> VEP mixer (FX) ---> Aux track [VEP Instrument] (Return / Wet signal)
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it's just organized and named differently for PT
In Pro Tools there is 2 VEP plugins : "Vienna Ensemble Pro" (to connect to a VEP Server) and "Vienna Ensemble Pro Audio Input" (to send audio to an existing VEP Pro instance). Seems the same on Cubase (or, at least, on Vstack).
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I tried and tried, I spent a long time trying to read you. It's as though you have a different first language than I do, and mine is English.@demozic said:
[When I insert "VEP Audio Input" plug-in there is no signal in the output of the track (whatever it is : audio, aux, master, instrument etc), there is no audio ... this is odd. That's why I suggested to add a "Thru" button/option to let the signal go through the" VE Pro Audio Input" plug-in.
If you do this properly with a host that works correctly, you won't have this problem as I read it. This is why I gave you a picture.
"Sends": to an FX Channel - you can call it AUX, Bus, whatever - "IN echoes". The insert on "IN echoes" is VE Pro Audio Input, connected to instance "7" input 1-2. A signal does get through to 'echoes' in VE Pro '7' and returns to Cubase in the channels '7 Master' (and, not seen, the channel '17-18' according to 'DIFF' which 'echoes' sends to). It really just works. There is no trouble getting the signal to the input channel and there is no trouble getting the signal through, to the outputs and back to the host, Cubase. Evidently my guess as to what you're doing failed. I don't have Pro Tools and I don't know what to tell you you are missing here. But what you are suggesting as a feature ("Thru") is how it actually works. I'm sorry. There is no 'muting', no 'blocking'. Something_is_wrong.
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To reiterate, to be sure I have really laid this out for you:
If the [DAW] track has an insert filled with "VE Pro Audio Input" and it is connected to a working VEP instance, eg., '1-2' and you have made an 'Input channel' '1-2' in that working instance, you are sending the audio in that [DAW] track at 0dB. If you have an 'aux' channel with VE Pro Audio Input residing in, inserted onto that channel, you are sending according to that send level; ibid.@demozic said:
a "Thru" button/option to let the signal go through the "VE Pro Audio Input" plug-in.It works; it sends a signal. The functionality of this does in no way block that initial audio. There is something wrong there. I have no idea what.
"you can put it on an instrument track but also on any other kind of tracks". What I have been telling you is VE Pro IS an instrument type of track. The only guess is similar to my past guess. Are you not handling it as an instrument track?There is no call for this 'Thru' button. It_gets_through, no problem. It just works.
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Well it's 2014 now, and I'm considering getting VEP 5 strictly for mixing large projects. Did they ever do an update where you can return the signal from VEP back to the original source channel in the DAW (Logic X in my case)? It sounds like, for each track that involves an effect plugin from VEP on the slave, that it requires an additional aux channel and an additional bus depending on what you are doing. And that's only if you use 1 plugin, or consecutive plugins, from the slave. If I wanted to treat a guitar track with 5 plugins, and #2 and #4 were on the slave machine, I suppose that would require 4 channels in addition to the source guitar? How do mixers organize their template? Do they decide to apply VEP plugins on certain sections only, like just the drum tracks, or just the effects buses, or just the sub groups? I hear composers rave about VEP 5, deservedly so. But are pro mixers actually using this? I'm trying to wrap my brain around this. Unfortunately they do not allow you to run the VEP 5 demo unless you've previously purchased one of their products. I wish Logic continued the nodes. I am unfamiliar with Wormhole 2, but I'm going to look into it. Any other options for connecting mac machines with Logic X?
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I use VEP 5 with Ableton 9 and love it! I read this thread and perhaps this will help: How I use VEP as an Outboard Effects Board for Vocals (or anything else) Within your DAW =============== Your will need 1 instance of VE in a Instrument Track - This will be your ALL Vocal Output channel that will be sent to the Master output of your DAW Insert VE Audio Input in a return/aux channel - Assigned to unused input in VE (e.g. 1-2) Create an audio Track (This is the track you will be recording on) Send the signal of the Audio Track you just created to the Aux channel you just created Within VE ========== Create an Bus and route the output to the Master Bus (ch 1-2) Create an Input channel; change input to receive audio from desired Return/Aux channel in your DAW (e.g. 1-2) You can route the output of your input channel to the Master bus OR to your bus 1; You can add effects to either channel strip Results ======== Record your Audio in your DAW if you havn't already You should hear your Wet Signal from the same Instrument track you inserted the VE Instance on Advantages of this set up ========================== Control Send Automation,Muting and UnMuting for each recorded track within your daw;You only need one track per audio recording. Add DAW Inserts Before sending to VE The Instrument Track that contains the Instance of VE behaves as a Group ALL Vocals track,yet you still have control of the individual Vocal tracks
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Well, I have on a number of occasions used numerous instances of Vienna Suite Hybrid Reverb from audio or from instrument channels from other VEP instances. However I do end up upping the latency. I'm using Cubase 5.5.3 though. I tend to make a single stereo output/instrument channel coming back. It does gobble CPU. If you're not even able to get two, you need more muscle or a better fit for VEP than PT or Logic, I say.@evan_1347 said:
I have a problem to assign more than 1 Audio input. I thought I could use an VE Pro server instance as a Reverb FX host and 1 Audio Input is fine but as soon as I assign the second audio input the "reverbs" distorts. Tried all buffers. Both on local host Mac Pro 6 core and network PC Q6600 HP.
Running Pro Tools HD10 with 256 samples buffer - no go
also
Logic 9.1.5 - no go
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Nice one, I had been thinking about this for a while, trying to spread my cpu consumption onto my slave once I had bounced out all my slave tracks to audio. I could easily do it if I spent $$$$ on digigrid et.c but hey this has the same capabilities, I'm going to try using VEPro as an ITB summing mixer, run all my sub groups into VEPro process them on the slave and run them all back to one track in Logic, i'm gonna set up a standard group patch and maybe a Michael Brauer style summing situation, if you standardise your buss mixing in your DAW you could try many different mixing/mastering solutions with a just few clicks... Smoke me a kipper, I'l be back for breakfast.
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I get it now; you expect the track or bus where the 'FX = VE Pro Audio Input' resides as an insert to show signal. It doesn't, it is a waystation to send to the external rack in the form of VE Pro input receiving the send. EG: it does appear to block the signal in the DAW host, you are absolutely right. So a print of that channel is always empty. I make a bus to send to with AI inserted, rather than insert directly. And that bus isn't showing signal, because it is not really anything in itself in terms of Cubase or apparently PT. I understand what you want now, but I think that is not likely to happen because it's a different design completely.@demozic said:
When I insert "VEP Audio Input" plug-in there is no signal in the output of the track (whatever it is : audio, aux, master, instrument etc), there is no audio ... this is odd. That's why I suggested to add a "Thru" button/option to let the signal go through the" VE Pro Audio Input" plug-in
And at least in terms of Cubase that print doesn't happen offline. EDIT: recently under a different OS I find that Cubase (with Audio Input instantiated) will not export until Realtime Export is ticked.
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RIght, so now it's 2015. I just spent my Sunday afternoon reading the manual cover to cover, seraching through thraeds, etc. until I came across this occasional but ongoing discussion. So VE pro can effectively function as a very effective effect send, but it can't functionas an insert effect. I get it now, but I also hope VI gets that this is not at all clear in their advertising. I use some vienna symphonic orchestra stuff and I'm happy to support the company in general, but one of the main inducements for me to buy VE pro was the added value of using it as a host for complext effect chains that I wanted to be able to save. And I wanted to use them mainly as insert effects, not send effects. After rereading all of this, I just went back and reread the product description on VSI's site. I submit that the send-only paradigm is not at all clear from their description. So one balck mark against VSI from me, though I generally love their stuff.
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Well it's 2014 now, and I'm considering getting VEP 5 strictly for mixing large projects. Did they ever do an update where you can return the signal from VEP back to the original source channel in the DAW (Logic X in my case)? It sounds like, for each track that involves an effect plugin from VEP on the slave, that it requires an additional aux channel and an additional bus depending on what you are doing.
This is Logic's way. I don't remember if I looked at this from Logic at the time of my earlier replies, but I know I have at some point. It is a PITA, I agree.
From the vantage point of Cubase, the # of outputs Cubase sees is established as you instantiate the plugin. The assignment in VE Pro is directly reflected as an Instrument Channel of VE Pro, it's already there as that.
From seeing again the failure to communicate w. demozic back then, I actually questioned myself today: but as to Cubase, it is a fact that inserting VE Pro Audio Input onto an audio track or instrument channel gets through to VE Pro.
While I just described placing it as an insert, the architecture of it is not internal to Cubase. It is not inserting an Effect in Cubase. It is a way to facilitate a send (insert meaning with no level control on the send) to the "external plugin" (not different than communicating with an external bit of hardware gear conceptually). It is not designed to be an effect in the DAW host at all, so this is not going to be 'a feature of VE Pro Audio Input'. You're hoping for something fundamentally other than that.