I'd like to add to this discussion of Gigastudio problems that I agree completely with Peter, having had terrible problems with Gigastudio on a fast, otherwise perfectly functional XP system. Also, I find the differences between the clunky Windows-style interface and what I am used to - the Emulator IV hardware sampler running the Miraslav Vitous library - to be very annoying. If one could take a system as elegant and intuitive as the Emulator and crank it up ten or twenty times in raw power, one would have the best possible sampler to use with a huge library like this one. Because with that sampler for example, you can do anything and access anything immediately and directly, route any modulator to any destination, etc., and the operating system does not interfere, ever. Try saying that about any Windows program and you will hear long, hard laughter.

Also, I find it very disturbing that the patent Peter talks about is so damning to other companies who could probably build a better system. I have been seriously considering switching to a Mac solely to use the Emagic sampler on the Vienna Symphonic Library, but I have absolutely no idea of whether it would be any improvement over the Gigastudio.

Yes, the patent on Gigastudio is quite a hinderance. I know an awful lot about patent law, and generally support patents as an incentive to inventors, but unfortunately sometimes a company acquires patent rights and then doesn't exercise them well.

The Gigastudio patent covers any music sampler synthesizer that streams samples from the hard drive to the memory before the sample is actually played, and then continually streams the later parts of the sample afterwards, in order to have "Instant playback" or zero-latency streaming.

Streaming off the hard drive would probably be impossible without this initial "caching".

So any other sampler out there could likely not use hard disk streaming and still have zero latency without violating the patent.

The best way to fight Tascam now, I think, is to complain to Conexant, the owner of the patent. They exclusively license the patent to Tascam, so if they found out how badly Tascam's been handling their patent, maybe they'd either step in or license it to someone else.

Hi Peter
I'm not shure the patent is that strict - as I recall, the Halion use
streaming with buffering as well - infact almost every piece
of audiosoftware uses streaming with some sort of buffering.

The point is the way Conexant does it - apparently the Halion uses
more than twice the amount of memory pr. buffer to get latency that's
even close to Giga. Giga is not perfect - far from it, but its the best
available and certainly the most powerfull and IMHO currently the only
one suitable for a library the size of the VSL.

What I really would like to know is if the enigmatic remark from the
moderator accounts for VSL collaborating with Tascam on the (admitely)
looong awaited 3.0 version or they are doing something on their own.

regards
Bjarne

Hello Peter,

You're actually a little misinformed about the Conexant relationship, although it is understandable because few people actually know the full story of those relationships.

I agree that GigaStudio's development is sometimes frustratingly slow.

However, you're very hard on some extremely good people. Do not equate TASCAM with the folks that actually do the work on GigaStudio. They are the same people who worked on it always, and they are fine people. Excellent people.

I am first and foremost a musician...I derive 100% of my income from it. As such, I am willing to forgive less-than-ideal features in GigaStudio, because overall, there is no better tool for the purpose. I can make beautiful music with it, and it opened up career opportunities for me that I would not have had with my previous tools.

I'm not saying you don't have a right to a negative opinion. But I will certainly go on record disagreeing with it. I am extremely thankful for GigaStudio. It has made a huge difference in my life. That is a lot to say for a $500 software program.

Best regards,
Bruce

Hi Peter, Bruce and Sapkiller,

I did keep out from this discussion for some time, since Peter seems to be quite emotionally involved in this matter, but I do agree 100 % with Bruce and Sapkiller. For me as a 60 years old composer, Gigastudio did indeed change my life. While agreeing with some critics made to the software, I would like to remind my experience with Finale 1.0 [[:(]] [[:(]] and some others music programs in their early stage. Even if you, Peter, are the genius you do obviously consider yourself, which is very possible, you should refrain from writing the way you do. It does not help you and it irritates some readers

Thanks

Igor

To be personally offended when somebody criticizes a company borders on the insane. Unless of course you really are affiliated with them, which I now believe. If so, then I hope you forward all of my comments to them because maybe they'll listen to you - they certainly don't listen to their customers who complain on the Tascam boards.

Anyway, almost all my complaints are with Tascam. I don't expect the handful of people who made the first Gigasampler to have a perfect product, but now that they're supported by a large comapny I expect results. Haven't seen any yet.

Sorry, gentlemen, but I come from capitalist America where we expect a certain level of quality from our coroprations, and when they don't give that quality we are not only allowed but encouraged to voice our opinions against such comapnies. Therefore, if my opinion upsets you, then I suggest you stop reading my messages, because you are not going to stop me from voicing my opinion on this terrible company. And I encourage you to do the same, but don't you dare even suggest that I should stop being frank in my disgust with Tascam. I truly care not if you're irritated by it.

The Gigasampler was/is a great idea. But I prefer Mac to PC, and I certainly want to have an integrated working environment. Right now, e-magic's logic seems to me to provide that. So I'm waiting to see how the EXS24 VSL version compares to the Giga library.

Nigel

Hi Nigel,

I too moved to Mac/Logic/finale a few years back and I love it! I’m using Akai (S6000) and K2500 with M. Vitous library. Vitous sounds OK but only after enormous effort – nightmare to work with!!! I had to retune the whole library, redo all the stereo programs (for S6000) and after I spent $4K on it, support now from Ilio is non existent!!!

Anyway, I too would probably prefer EXS24, but I think it has only 32 voices (GIGA has 160) and that wouldn’t do it. So perhaps EXS24mkIII will be more generous, I hope.

I hear from guys around here (Berklee) all kind of horrors about GIGA. BTW I don’t understand why we still don’t have some serious dedicated hardware sampler with internal HDs, 512 voices tons of RAM, 17’ FPD, 16 or 32 digital outs, based on similar idea like software samplers, without all kind of computer OS conflicts. I’m losing hope with Akai people. Maybe Tascam will surprise us after all. They are good at making boxes so they should stick to it. Or perhaps they sould just sell the license to Mackie because they get things done!

I think that the people at Vienna are creating a fantastic engine – but I don’t see any adequate chassis to install it onto.

Peter,

I don’t understand all the technical details you described in your posts (I’m only a dumb composer), but I’m not intimidated a bit. To the contrary – I love to learn as I go, and I agree 100% with your philosophy on how business of any kind should be run, and our right to scream when we're paying someone who doesn’t deliver on promises.

But there is no need to insult our non-american friends (and vice versa) let us all yell together until well get what we want! And then (of course) we shall yell all over again! Right?

If you want to see a true collaboration. Check out "DA7.com"

GO Pats GO ! [:D]

Kecinzer,

Logic Platinum 5.x supports up to 64 Audio Instruments, and depending on your CPU power, each instrument could be a separate instance of EXS24 MkII.
Also, if you enable VSM (Virtual Sample Memory), you effectively get hard disk streaming, just like Gigasampler.

So, the 32-voice limit you mention is definitely NOT the case!
[:D]

Also, EXS24 now supports multiple outputs......

Hope this helps clear things up.
Regards - Colin

Colin,
Thank you very much for clarifying the voice issue in the EXS24. I just got the 5.3 Platinum Logic so I'll get going with it. I only hope that the EXS24 version of this library will not be a watered-down version of the Giga.
- K. [:D]

Definitely not - the EXS-version is completely native programming, done originally for this host-application.

/Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library

Regarding the original topic, has everyone heard the big news regarding EastWest? Check out the latest issue of Keyboard for their ads. They're releasing a number of new products, including the EWQLSO pre-bundled with the software needed to run them. No need to buy GigaStudio, or any other sampler software for that matter. It's going to be Mac compatible, too (NI designed the software).

Evidently, Tascam has not even released GS 3.0 to the library developers yet, so they can't even begin to start writing product for it as of yet.

In addition to the EXS-24 version, I wonder if VSL is contemplating an alternate path other than GS for release (perhaps a bundled version like the EW product). Tascam seems to be taking forever.

Lee Blaske

I am a one-year giga-user, and a professor of Music Technology at a small college. I love Giga studio. It won't work with early XP (or home) editions, but when I finally got around to upgrading W98 to XP pro this month, I installed Giga and it booted and has worked perfectly with zero trouble.

My biggest disappointment has NOT been Giga, but the samples I have spent a fortune on which have not lived up to the hype. I am hoping the VSL will finally be worth the high price tag. The biggest problem with the industry is the "buy it... but if you hate it, you're stuck with it" attitude. I don't mind paying full price for a great product, but I am now stuck with $4,000+ of lame samples. I'm plain ticked off with the shameless hiding behind the "it's software, so you can't return it or try it before you buy it" scam.

Peter, if you have written a better program, why don't you send them it to show there are different solutions.....

Geert.

I haven't written an entire sampler, just various modules and pieces of code that could be made into a sampler. And if I did that they could still sue me for patent infringement, especially if I sent it to them and rubbed it in their face.

Nevertheless, I have something new I am contemplating making that would not infringe their patent, that would not be a realtime sampler at all but could be the best thing yet for orchestral creations. It's just in my head right now, but it gives me something to do. [:)]

something to do, because there is no VSL in the mail yet?

If you are talking about your idea to render a score.... Why render? Isn't it possible and much preferable to do everything realtime these days?

If Halion is going to handle these samples right, it would be possible already [:)]

About sending your proggie, do you really believe sending them an idea is suable? An idea is far from a finished product.
If you really think Gigastudio sucks, you can finish your sampler for home use without risk... (I'm up for Beta testing [6] )

Regards,
Geert.

"About sending your proggie, do you really believe sending them an idea is suable? An idea is far from a finished product. "

I've posted my ideas on their website and they are either not interested or (I hope) plan on incorporating some of them in their next version of Gigastudio. But they've been tight lipped about it.

'If you really think Gigastudio sucks, you can finish your sampler for home use without risk... (I'm up for Beta testing)"

Unfortunately I can't. I am very familiar with US patent laws, and it's illegal merely to make or use an invention that infringes a patent, to say nothing of giving it to others or selling it. Unfortunately my hands are tied there.

As for rendering a score, I've found that even Gigastudio (don't know about Halion) has limitations that can only be solved by a non-realtime renderer. And with a non-realtime render, you can do so many amazing things that you can't do in realtime - such as complex wavetracing for accurate environmental effects, and (this is the most important) MULTI-CHANNEL sound rendering for distribution as 24-bit 96khz DVD-audio or AC-3 5.1 surround sound for movies. How would you accomplish this in any way other than rendering? In GS you'd have to separately record all your tracks and then use a hardware mixer to mix each one of them. I'm talking about making something that could render the whole score and create a 5-channel WAV right on the spot with accurate spatial depth and environmental effects without having to use a hardware encoder.

And then there'd be no limit to the samples you could use, too - you could have a score that utilized totally random parts of the 200 GB Vienna library with no problem at all.

Peter,

Regarding rendering to DVD/5.1:
If you use a program like Logic Audio Platinum, you can create full surround mixes and simply use the "bounce" function to write the files to hard disk, in 24-bit 96khz format.

On Mac, you could then use A.Pack (part of DVD Studio Pro) to encode your files in Dolby Digital format for burning on DVD.

All in software.....nothing needs to leave your computer.

Regards - Colin

The patent obviously can't cover all that, since both Halion, EXS24 and soon Kontakt will use diskstreaming in the same way as GS uses it.

"If you use a program like Logic Audio Platinum, you can create full surround mixes and simply use the "bounce" function to write the files to hard disk, in 24-bit 96khz format. "

How do you mix your sampled instruments from Gigastudio in surround though? Or is Logic a sampler separate from GS?

I'm guessing even with what you're saying you'd still need to record each track from GS separately and then use Logic to mix them.

As for the patent and the other programs, I'll have to take a look at them. Is it possible that they have much higher latency than GS? GS uses a sample caching system for an "instant on" sample - it takes the first few milliseconds of the sample and stores it in memory, and then as soon as the sample is played, it loads the later parts into a sample buffer. That's the patent. If someone else (Halion, etc.) figured out another way to have an instant play that doesn't use GS's technique, that's great, but I can't figure one.