@bogdan said:

 But if they really start looking into it, is going to take a little bit longer till we get something profesional with full implementation of contemporary music notation and interpretation...it's a lot of work to cover ..

The reality, like Errikos said, is that the majority doesn't use notation as their prime composing tool, therefore expecting VSL to take that road is feable speculation. But, I think, if they take the chance, they would captivate a lot of users that, like myself, are trying to settle with one library and one notation software, two concepts that, at the moment, appear to be mutually exclusive.

The lack of interest of VSL people in the topic also disallows our imagination.

@Tralen said:

the majority doesn't use notation as their prime composing tool, therefore expecting VSL to take that road is feable speculation. But, I think, if they take the chance, they would captivate a lot of users that, like myself, are trying to settle with one library and one notation software, two concepts that, at the moment, appear to be mutually exclusive.

The lack of interest of VSL people in the topic also disallows our imagination.

Just because most VSL users use a traditional DAW doesn't mean that they don't want Notation. I don't use VSL and Sibelius, I use cubase... but if I felt like I could adequately use notation to compose, I'd do it in a heartbeat! There are others who do also, so the idea isn't ready to dismiss.

Question for anyone:

What about a "Vienna Composer" instead of V-notation, basically a VSL DAW instead? In Cubase VST Expression is nice, but still isn't quite built in a way that perfectly compliments VSL. DAW's have piano rolls AND notation and we all know there's a gap there. Most times I prefer notation, but no daw adequately accomplishes this with the complexity of VSL and the piano roll certainly has uses that traditional notation doesn't serve as well. So instead of a new concept, simply give VSL these features.

VE is already half way there... I agree with the points that VSL has a lot of what they need already done. Imagine "Vienna DAW" or even "VE Daw edition" or just a new version of VE - The DAW could be built on VE. VE is already a VST host, a mixer, a network program, and so on. In addition to it's features, just add midi sequencing, with a piano roll and notation editor and you're done. Maybe add some VI or VI Pro features that work better for playback in those editor - but I think it would be much easier to build these features in VE than create a new program. It wouldn't need to have every feature that Cubase has. Cubase, Pro Tools, DP, and others don't all have the exact same features and design. VSL could have VE simply add what VSL users want from DAW's that we currently aren't getting... Personally, I think this approach would solve a lot of problems without creating new ones.

Any thoughts on this? I love the idea.

I believe I had mentioned exactly that on the old post, which is that VSL should go ahead and create a DAW complete with notation, since only the sequencer and automation are missing from what they have developed already.

For the record I actually said that most people do use traditional and sophisticated notation software, especially at the high and mid-high end of the industry - as well as some of us at the other end of the spectrum[:(]

Hey Traien,

Being myself involved in music ( grad student and also T.A) I can definetely say that there are classes of composition and orchestration which are waiting for something serious from this point of view. For example, where I study, they rely on Finale, but just for printing out scores...in rest they are on their knees beging pianists to play some midi files for them or waiting reluctantly in the line for some conductors to play their pieces. 

  I think is a matter of marketing also. VSL should be present in every major university to prove that the "sound" can be reached and there are major progresses in this area. A flyer sent to music departments could cost a little but I think could be a benefit in the end. There is definetly another segment of musicians involved in music notation.

  The lack of interest from VSL people doesn't mean that the notation world is at its end-- the way I see it is more optimistic .It can act as an impuls from VSL to campain for gathering more notation composers  to acces VSL site.

@Tralen said:

the majority doesn't use notation as their prime composing tool, therefore expecting VSL to take that road is feable speculation. But, I think, if they take the chance, they would captivate a lot of users that, like myself, are trying to settle with one library and one notation software, two concepts that, at the moment, appear to be mutually exclusive.

The lack of interest of VSL people in the topic also disallows our imagination.

Just because most VSL users use a traditional DAW doesn't mean that they don't want Notation. I don't use VSL and Sibelius, I use cubase... but if I felt like I could adequately use notation to compose, I'd do it in a heartbeat! There are others who do also, so the idea isn't ready to dismiss.

Question for anyone:

What about a "Vienna Composer" instead of V-notation, basically a VSL DAW instead? In Cubase VST Expression is nice, but still isn't quite built in a way that perfectly compliments VSL. DAW's have piano rolls AND notation and we all know there's a gap there. Most times I prefer notation, but no daw adequately accomplishes this with the complexity of VSL and the piano roll certainly has uses that traditional notation doesn't serve as well. So instead of a new concept, simply give VSL these features.

VE is already half way there... I agree with the points that VSL has a lot of what they need already done. Imagine "Vienna DAW" or even "VE Daw edition" or just a new version of VE - The DAW could be built on VE. VE is already a VST host, a mixer, a network program, and so on. In addition to it's features, just add midi sequencing, with a piano roll and notation editor and you're done. Maybe add some VI or VI Pro features that work better for playback in those editor - but I think it would be much easier to build these features in VE than create a new program. It wouldn't need to have every feature that Cubase has. Cubase, Pro Tools, DP, and others don't all have the exact same features and design. VSL could have VE simply add what VSL users want from DAW's that we currently aren't getting... Personally, I think this approach would solve a lot of problems without creating new ones.

Any thoughts on this? I love the idea.

Knowing the quality of this company, I would even pay in advance for such a feature, and I 'm  talking seriously here.

I saw but forgot to mention it in my post. I do realize that many use notation.

As a compositional tool, notation has suffered in this area... at least in relationship to using VSL or other complex sample libraries. Now that I've got this in my head, I don't think I'll be happy until it happens. Give me a VE Daw and a Divisi Library and I'll never leave my computer again! lol

-Sean

@bogdan said:

Knowing the quality of this company, I would even pay in advance for such a feature, and I 'm  talking seriously here.

Same here. I'm poor right now but I'd sell half the crap I own to pay in advance for it. I'd practically give up my right arm for it... lol

-Sean

Here is the original suggestion all this time ago, thankfully now it is amassing more interest...

http://community.vsl.co.at/forums/p/28179/183579.aspx#183579

[ I'd sell half the crap I own to pay in advance for it]

Honestly, here you're so damn right ..we have so much crap to sell ....

Nobody I think is milionare but a small effort from all users can make sense for the things to get startet.

@Tralen said:

Actually, this software could even cause me to drop my other libraries and migrate for VSL entirely.

After what we've been currently saying, and after reading this... I think we can all safely say that we are in agreement on this point. We want it, and bad- bad enough that we may call it one of the most essential tools we could want.

'And VSL saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good.' lol, that's about how I'd react to this software. I'd start trying to push VSL on those I know like a religion. And just like the Internet, it would reach a point where I'd ask "How did I even live my life before this happened?" lol (I ask this now, owning VSL and looking back at the sounds I once used...cringe....ugh!)

-Sean

I think for the sake of our discussion and who knows maybe we can get some results from it, a new thread must be created to encourage people to sign in for this program to be started( maybe I'm dreaming with eyes wide open:)). Talking from this Sibelius 7 perspective some of the users maybe are not tempted ..at least Notion users or Finale ..or maybe they are.. I don't know..but a fresh thread and one that clearly asking for vsl notation maybe gets more attention.

  At least people from VSL will laugh or they 're gona take us seriously !!;)) 

@bogdan said:

I think for the sake of our discussion and who knows maybe we can get some results from it, a new thread must be created to encourage people to sign in for this program to be started... a fresh thread and one that clearly asking for vsl notation maybe gets more attention.

  At least people from VSL will laugh or they 're gona take us seriously !!;)) 

Well, even if not to 'rally support', lol - I figure we can at least get more ideas or feature requests that in the end might help us. Ideally I would love the notation bit being the main focus... but with any feature request, it's easy to veer off-topic... SO, I created a new thread for this and made it as all-inclusive to a VSL DAW idea as possible. I also brought up the points we posted here for reference (and another divisi one I really like).

I posted "VSL DAW anyone?" under the Vienna Ensemble forum as I felt it would get more feedback there (more users), despite it really being approprate in both forums.

Hopefully if we continue this there and get more users something great can come of this. If I think of any other daw features I would like specifically useful for VSL, I'll add them as well. I think this way we can 1) make it more likely to happen but 2) make this big 'feature request' as applicable to all users (also making it more likely to happen).

-Sean

P.S. I hope no one minds me taking the liberty to post this. I wanted to happen just as much, so I just did it. [;)]

Remember also that it took them 2 whole years to release this new version, what the heck took so long to program? The Microsoft toolbar? Was it the recording of that great Sibelius orchestra?.. I mean we're stuck with this for another 2 years probably!.. Have you thought of that? Although I have always stayed away from Finale, I hope they revolutionize the industry with their next release - it's their chance to break the stale-mate now.

@Errikos said:

what the heck took so long to program? The Microsoft toolbar?

Agreed! And I'm someone who welcomes this change. I simply realize, with how MS developed the ribbon, that the interface is already built for them for the most part. Most 'programming' is already done for them. This in every respect was a rip off upgrade, with only one exception to me, 64 bit.

Hopeully with Sibelius 8 they get their act together. I'm not a Finale fan personally.

-Sean

@iscorefilm said:

Hopeully with Sibelius 8 they get their act together. I'm not a Finale fan personally.

-Sean

Me neither but audio feedback is so important to me that if Finale moves seriously ahead in that department I'll be switching despite the learning curve. Sibelius 8 will probably take as long as it took the real Sibelius [;)]

For me, I feel there is little learning curve... but I guess it's only because the ribbon 'jives' with me more. BUT, I agree... if AVID doesn't get things right and Finale did (or anyone else), with as much notation ability as those two have... any learning curve would be worth it.

-Sean

Does anybody have feedback on how is Sibelius 7 working with VSL libraries? I ordered the upgrade (which hasn't arrived yet) because it's 64-bit. While Sibelius worked pretty well with the smaller SE, I found VSL + Sibelius increasingly unreliable as I moved to the full libraries. IMO, being able to load more comprehensive sample sets would make this upgrade very useful even absent any other improvements.

(Yes, better still would be a notation program that only loaded the samples you needed ...)

It works no differently in playback or design. The only single difference is the location of the folder in appdata in windows. Someone just answered that in another thread, but I can't remember.

And yes, I'd love a fully implemented notation program.

-Sean

Hi,

Speaking of notation software in relationship to the VSL libraries, I notice that one specific program has been not introduced here: I am talking about Overture (4.1.5), made by Geniesoft.

In Windows XP, 32 bit, it serves like a VST host as well as notation software. Loading VI or VE into the VST rack is just a breeze. Apart from its capabilities as notation package it offers also precise and easy MIDI editing per track. Tempo adjustments can be made easily, there is also some tempo tapping issue, which works better than the odd Sibelius implementation.

Users can make their own 'expression' file, a very easy way to set up whatever keyswitch or CC controller (even combined!!) related to whatever articulation. This means for example that you can point an expression as 'a2' to a non divisi patch and 'solo' to a divisi patch. Simple as that and....much easier than the sound editor of Sibelius.

The GUI looks a little old fashioned maybe, but offers a very intuitive way of handling things. There isn't hardly any learning curve (like in Finale, Sibelius and also Notion).

So, for a combination of notation and MIDI editing this a really a fine piece of software IMHO. It doesn't have that glossy GUI of Sibelius, the prints are not so sublime also, but it feels a bit like heaven after years of frustration being able with only the TAB key to switch between scoring and MIDI-editing (there is also a nice piano roll window).

If I need a beautiful score I still use the Sibelius (I quitted Encore and Finale years ago already), or idem when I make a quick arrangement for one my ensembles for example. For very elaborated MIDI editing only, possibly combined with audio material I use a DAW like Cubase 6 (with its groundbreaking Expression Map 2, which surpasses version 1 in all respects). Sonar has neglected its MIDI users for years now, so it won't help you much further.

To be honest: working in Windows 7 (64 bit), there is some 'funny' issue to be mentioned using Overture (still 32 bit): it doesn't show any audio device and hence it refuses to select a VST folder.

So, actually this gives a new situation in which you can use your DAW or VST host (as Cantabile) directly with Overture, of course with a correct virtual midi in and out cabling.

There are rumours that a Overture 5 version will presented, in which this issue will be resolved maybe. Don't count on it however and just use the setup as described.

Shortly: readers of this post: why not give this a try? As long as Sibelius (and again also in this rather disappointing version 7), Finale and Notion don't offer a easy, decent and extended way of handling MIDI editing, it doesn't make sense to wait for another decennium. Admitted, there may be some issues that could make you return back to what you use now (just visit the forum on the Overture site and see what is going on there).Of course, also Overture isn't perfect, but the first perfect piece of music software has to be written yet, isn't it?

Personally, I think that VSL isn't going to produce any notation software in the (next) future. I would prefer actually, that the core activities remain focussed on sampling, sampler and sound. There is still some room for improvement*. So I am eagerly waiting for VI PRO 2 and MIR PRO by the way.Please note: I am not against the idea of a special new notation program of course in which VSL products will shine.

I hope that this post will inspire people to look further than what is well-known. Maybe superfluously, I don't have any relationship with whatever software producing company.

Best,
Erik

* It is not the right place for this topic, but here is my feature request in VI PRO2: randomizing EQ possibilities per cell (just as in real life). How about that?