Wow! Humans and Goblins. That sounds like it's gonna be reallllyyyy good.
It's just as well you're extremely talented otherwise the whole thing could crash.
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I'm really honored to have intelligent discussions with such a musically "educated" professionals such as you Paul!@PaulR said:
Wow! Humans and Goblins. That sounds like it's gonna be reallllyyyy good.
It's just as well you're extremely talented otherwise the whole thing could crash.
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Greetings All. I signed up to this thread to ask you whether you know ANY library, general or dedicated for strings, whose samples are not grany, harsh, are constant intonation wise, do not hiss or have bothering harmonics sticking out of the base frequency of the sample, homogeneous as far as tone color and to not fizz like ginger ale. I don't, so correct me if I'm wrong. Surely, people will jump and advocate for this or that package, but in final analysis I only care whether violins and violas sound like violins and violas and not something that the producer gives them the name of being violin or viola samples, reminding me that they may be violins and violas. I don't care when producers adorn libraries with myriad or plugins and articulations to correct major deficiencies in the acoustic quality of their samples. Surely, articulations and plug-ins are very valuable, but in the main I still want realistic samples. It's like in the '60s when FM Stereo became pervasive, HiFi manufacturers added remote control to their equipment. Did this make FM sound better? To me the main problem is that, even if there's such a library, one spends tweaking it for weeks, sometimes months to obtain decent sound. I'd like to make lots of music, not technology (which I love, but not when it hinders my work). My pile of sketched is getting very high because I am doing much more technology than producing music. Thank you for reading. *** My question comes out of my heart, and in no way put up to provoke any controversy or spite, but serious discussion *** S.
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Sylva, welcome to the forum.
To me, as a strings player, the "perfect" strings library does not exist. Indeed all sample libraries (any instrument: strings, woods, brass, etc.) are only approximations. A sample library simply cannot truly replace a live player. A live player can be far more expressive on any given note than a corresponding recorded sample. The very fact that samples are recorded makes them static - though all sorts of controller adjustments will certainly help.
That being said, to my ears, VSL comes the closest to the actual sound of a traditional symphonic string section. To me, one of its weaknesses is in some of the release samples. The high number of articulations helps a great deal, as that better reflects what a player can actually do with a bow, compared to some libraries that have offer very few options.
If one things back to the "state of the art" 15 or 20 years ago, the overall quality of samples have come a long ways.
On a more technical level, I strongly suspect that what you are calling "hiss" and "grain" is simply a legitimate part of genuine string sound: real bow noise. Though it may be hard to believe, the type of horse hair used in a bow (for bassists it can be traditional bleached white, unbleached black, or a mix of both) has a real influence on the overall sound produced (white is by far the smoothest, black gives more grit and bite). But, even with the traditional bleached white, as used by all orchestral string sections, the rubbing of the horse hair against the strings will produce some grit. If a sound sample is missing that "grit" the sample is actually less "real". If a composer wants to emphasize the "grit" from the bow, the sound can get very harsh (as in the VSL articulations noted as such).
Also, the type of rosin used can make a difference, and both too much/too little rosin can cause problems. Depending on bow stroke used, there may also be legitimate attack noise.
Although I will not "name names" one of the lesser competitors of VSL in the past had recorded so much attack noise in all their string samples, that the net effect, IMO, was to mirror very sloppy, 2nd rate string players, and removed that library from ever being a purchase consideration.
At great distances from the player, bow noise will be less evident, and the larger the ensemble the less precise things will be (for example there is a very real difference in the string sound between the violins in chamber strings and the violins in AP).
Finally, to get anything close to a "real" sound using samples, a great deal of work is generally required. While some companies emphasize usability "out of the box" the "out of the box" libraries still require a great deal of tweaking unless you want the "stock sound". IMO, VSL's samples cover a much broader range of musical styles.
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Thank you, noldar12. Thanks for the long reply. Yeah, I know about the grit and hair and friction, etc. I accompanied enough string players and conducted an enough number of orchestras. I am mainly complaining (if one can qualify this as complaint) about the cases when exaggerated grit, hiss, fizz, etc. is built into samples and, therefore, cannot be diminished even by the most powerful of plugins. I possess a library that's qualified to be good enough for use by the "pros" (as you may be one), not VSL, which has these kinds of deficiencies. Most other instruments are OK. I also know that sampling has come a long way, since I followed developments in signal processing closely. I also trust that further developments WILL render better and better virtual instruments. And yes, there are differences when the listener is at a distance and the amount of players in the strings group. And here lies the issue on hand. I am looking for the sound when the listener is not close to the players, as most listeners in a concert hall are not close to them. Also, when talking about violins and violas, all that grit must be worked out to be homogenized (this by the way is the conductor's obligation to achieve), producing a smooth sound when they have to play a long, broad, melodic line (say the E major theme in Brahs 4's second movement, or in Schonberg's F major theme in Peleas & Melisande). Certainly, smoothness will not be on the whole range of the instrument, depending on the register. However, overall, when it comes to violin sections, there should be a happy medium wich allows the composer to write cantabile and broad melodic lines. Because, if this isn't possible, nothing in the other lines below the principal melodic line will ever sound well even if these harmonic or poliphonic lines are sparsely orchestrated. And, IMO, this is why many, if not most, of the library demos i've heard have the winds and percussion in the front plane most of the time (yea, they sound great) because in this way the deficiencies of their high strings are less evident. Then, when they finally exhibit a melodic line, to my ear it sounds weak, with some sort of legato, and synthy. I understand that everything is approximate. One learns this in higher mathematics, where everything hovers around a certain point and its vecinity. However, I'd still like to live the day when smoother and more expressive upper string lines will be possible. Thank you again. Sound is difficult to appreciate because it's so subjective in perceiving it by each individual. This is in part why music is so diverse and composers have their own individual concept about sound and this is why Debussy is so different from Ravel and Penderecki from Stockhausen. So, everything in my writings are my two cents, nothing more. Yours, Sylva.
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Wow ! This is a very long thread to go through.
I have a very direct question to VSL development, basically :
Will we ever see some new and improved Strings Libraries in the near future, or NOT ?
Strings are imho the weakest link in the VSL lineup of libraries, they need improvements, and a new technique of recording them, this is not the first time I request this, or bring up this topic, but so far this seems to fall on deaf ears, and ignored, with nothing being done about it. I'm glad to see that I'm not the only one requesting better, new strings that are not recorded in a silent-stage, but a more lively setting, that are more suitable for producing more lush, warm, and expressive strings for cinematic/soundtrack applications.
Hopefully something is being done about this from the great talents at VSL development, and will be revealed when it's ready. Otherwise, please just let us know that this is not going to happen, and that VSL has no plans to add anything new, and improved as far as strings are concerned, so I can just forget about it, and shop elsewhere, since there are other options on the market that sound pretty good. Having said so, I still think that VSL has the best system as far as flexibility, and efficiency on the maket, and it would be a win win decision from VSL to introduce some new Strings libraries in the future. Hopefully soon.
Thanks,
Muziksculp
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@sylva said:
Greetings All. I signed up to this thread to ask you whether you know ANY library, general or dedicated for strings, whose samples are not grany, harsh, are constant intonation wise, do not hiss or have bothering harmonics sticking out of the base frequency of the sample, homogeneous as far as tone color and to not fizz like ginger ale. I don't, so correct me if I'm wrong. Surely, people will jump and advocate for this or that package, but in final analysis I only care whether violins and violas sound like violins and violas and not something that the producer gives them the name of being violin or viola samples, reminding me that they may be violins and violas. I don't care when producers adorn libraries with myriad or plugins and articulations to correct major deficiencies in the acoustic quality of their samples. Surely, articulations and plug-ins are very valuable, but in the main I still want realistic samples. It's like in the '60s when FM Stereo became pervasive, HiFi manufacturers added remote control to their equipment. Did this make FM sound better? To me the main problem is that, even if there's such a library, one spends tweaking it for weeks, sometimes months to obtain decent sound. I'd like to make lots of music, not technology (which I love, but not when it hinders my work). My pile of sketched is getting very high because I am doing much more technology than producing music. Thank you for reading. *** My question comes out of my heart, and in no way put up to provoke any controversy or spite, but serious discussion *** S.VSL strings do have their edges, I'll agree to that, but I would also argue that the sound one can obtain with them can be more then "decent" and is significantly more flexible and natural than that of any other library I have worked with.
(Bach and Schumann examples here should demonstrate the point sufficently.)
Once you have created an appropriate spatial setup for a production (this is absolutely essential, and you may consider the advantages of MIR in this regard) and have acquired some critical skills in shaping the performance via MIDI-controllers, nothing as weeks or months is necessary to achieve a good sounding performance. I did the Bach production above in what would be an equivalent to 3 working days, nothing more.
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Thank you, Goran. Unfortunately, I don't have VSL, can't afford it. And, I agree that controllers play a crucial role and so does stereo fielding, convolution, etc. I use them all. I am NOT looking for a Hollywood sound, but symphonic sound which most of the time, especially in classical and romantic repertory can be very smooth, expressive and lush (take for ex. Bruckner's second movements). Then, problem is that not only my library's sounds are harsh, but also unequal in intonation, sometimes quite noticeable and the attached sample player doesn't have a tuner for individual sounds. It also does not have a CC for rounding off harsh sounds at high frequencies such as, for ex., Garritan Personal Orchestra (which has other problems at its high strings and I am not considering it at the same level, which it doesn't claim to be at anyway). My library is an expensive one enough. My gripe is that from such an expensive library I was expecting better strings. In general, no matter what forum I am on, there is none that doesn't have multiple threads treating (and complaining about) the same problem. Again, I am not trying to be unreasonable. Sample technology has its limitations which peak at high strings. This is a situation where sample manufacturers fall short time and time again, and I think they should work (much) harder at giving the user better out-of-the-box performance. Certainly, I am going to listen to your examples, but that's a function of downloadability since I don't have broadband. Thanks for your opinion, which are quite welcome. S.
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@sylva said:
My gripe is that from such an expensive library I was expecting better strings. In general, no matter what forum I am on, there is none that doesn't have multiple threads treating (and complaining about) the same problem. Again, I am not trying to be unreasonable. Sample technology has its limitations which peak at high strings. This is a situation where sample manufacturers fall short time and time again, and I think they should work (much) harder at giving the user better out-of-the-box performanceIn my experience, high string register of the VSL is not more difficult to tame then the deep or the middle registers, I would say the quality is consistent throughout. I have very limited experience with other libraries (the only other I use is HSO as a complement to VSL, and HSO is very consistent in sound quality). To join noldar in priving 😊, if it's not a secret, which library do you use?
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@sylva said:
Goran, I can't listen to your examples because my dial-up won't download fast enough. Is there a possibility to download the files themselves? Thanks, S.Yes, if you send me your mail adress (f.e. via forum private message), I'll be happy to send you the files via yousendit (you'll then get a download link from them). Thank you, G.
P.S. Funny you should mention Bruckner in your previous post, as I also did the opening section of the Seventh Symphony with VSL (an older but still "decent" sounding vintage-style production I would say, which I can also send you).
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P Paul moved this topic from Orchestration & Composition on
