@devastat said:

So you would say that the soundtrack of 'The Dark Knight' and 'Inception' that has been composed around spiccato rhythms is just like the music of Mozart, no?

That's what I'm saying. Apart from Mozart writing music around the spiccati (as opposed to Hans' hot air), there is no difference. That is, with Mozart (and all others up to a few years ago) the spiccati were sparse and incidental, not the main dish, and Mozart could also write music without spiccati (contrary to Hans' imitators).

You see, you don't really love that style, nor does anybody else. It's just that the main difference between people who could write proper polyphony, i.e. symphonic music, and those who firmly resided in the pop/DJ industry, was that the devastating majority of the latter bunch needed the beat, i.e. a sonic pattern on top of which to add melody and bass lines. They are/were incapable of composing music without a constant rhythmic ostinato, or its presence. Hans just took a very old idea, and substituted pop music's drum-kit for it, not achieving any worthwhile musical results, but sadly enabling hordes and hordes of people that never belonged in the same city with a symphonic ensemble, to superimpose their pop "skills", on a symphonic bed of sorry sorts. And that's why not one of these people can write any other way for orchestra. It's not a matter of preference, it's a matter of crippling limitations.

You can swap the soundtracks of The Dark Knight and Inception, and even Hans won't know the difference. Great state of affairs, just great...

@Errikos said:

Hans just took a very old idea, and substituted pop music's drum-kit for it, not achieving any worthwhile musical results, but sadly enabling hordes and hordes of people that never belonged in the same city with a symphonic ensemble, to superimpose their pop "skills", on a symphonic bed of sorry sorts. And that's why not one of these people can write any other way for orchestra. It's not a matter of preference, it's a matter of crippling limitations.

Wow! Humans and Goblins. That sounds like it's gonna be reallllyyyy good.

It's just as well you're extremely talented otherwise the whole thing could crash.

@PaulR said:

Wow! Humans and Goblins. That sounds like it's gonna be reallllyyyy good.

It's just as well you're extremely talented otherwise the whole thing could crash.

Sylva, welcome to the forum.

To me, as a strings player, the "perfect" strings library does not exist.  Indeed all sample libraries (any instrument: strings, woods, brass, etc.) are only approximations.  A sample library simply cannot truly replace a live player.  A live player can be far more expressive on any given note than a corresponding recorded sample.  The very fact that samples are recorded makes them static - though all sorts of controller adjustments will certainly help.

That being said, to my ears, VSL comes the closest to the actual sound of a traditional symphonic string section.  To me, one of its weaknesses is in some of the release samples.  The high number of articulations helps a great deal, as that better reflects what a player can actually do with a bow, compared to some libraries that have offer very few options.

If one things back to the "state of the art" 15 or 20 years ago, the overall quality of samples have come a long ways.

On a more technical level, I strongly suspect that what you are calling "hiss" and "grain" is simply a legitimate part of genuine string sound: real bow noise.  Though it may be hard to believe, the type of horse hair used in a bow (for bassists it can be traditional bleached white, unbleached black, or a mix of both) has a real influence on the overall sound produced (white is by far the smoothest, black gives more grit and bite).  But, even with the traditional bleached white, as used by all orchestral string sections, the rubbing of the horse hair against the strings will produce some grit.  If a sound sample is missing that "grit" the sample is actually less "real".  If a composer wants to emphasize the "grit" from the bow, the sound can get very harsh (as in the VSL articulations noted as such).

Also, the type of rosin used can make a difference, and both too much/too little rosin can cause problems.  Depending on bow stroke used, there may also be legitimate attack noise.

Although I will not "name names" one of the lesser competitors of VSL in the past had recorded so much attack noise in all their string samples, that the net effect, IMO, was to mirror very sloppy, 2nd rate string players, and removed that library from ever being a purchase consideration.

At great distances from the player, bow noise will be less evident, and the larger the ensemble the less precise things will be (for example there is a very real difference in the string sound between the violins in chamber strings and the violins in AP).

Finally, to get anything close to a "real" sound using samples, a great deal of work is generally required.  While some companies emphasize usability "out of the box" the "out of the box" libraries still require a great deal of tweaking unless you want the "stock sound".  IMO, VSL's samples cover a much broader range of musical styles.

Wow !  This is a very long thread to go through.

I have a very direct question to VSL development, basically :

Will we ever see some new and improved Strings Libraries in the near future, or NOT ?

Strings are imho the weakest link in the VSL lineup of libraries, they need improvements, and a new technique of recording them, this is not the first time I request this, or bring up this topic, but so far this seems to fall on deaf ears, and ignored, with nothing being done about it.   I'm glad to see that I'm not the only one requesting better, new strings that are not recorded in a silent-stage, but a more lively setting, that are more suitable for producing more lush, warm, and expressive strings for cinematic/soundtrack applications.

Hopefully something is being done about this from the great talents at VSL development, and will be revealed when it's ready. Otherwise, please just let us know that this is not going to happen, and that VSL has no plans to add anything new, and improved as far as strings are concerned, so I can just forget about it, and shop elsewhere, since there are other options on the market that sound pretty good.  Having said so, I still think that VSL has the best system as far as flexibility, and efficiency on the maket, and it would be a win win decision from VSL to introduce some new Strings libraries in the future.  Hopefully soon.

Thanks,

Muziksculp

@sylva said:

Greetings All. I signed up to this thread to ask you whether you know ANY library, general or dedicated for strings, whose samples are not grany, harsh, are constant intonation wise, do not hiss or have bothering harmonics sticking out of the base frequency of the sample, homogeneous as far as tone color and to not fizz like ginger ale. I don't, so correct me if I'm wrong. Surely, people will jump and advocate for this or that package, but in final analysis I only care whether violins and violas sound like violins and violas and not something that the producer gives them the name of being violin or viola samples, reminding me that they may be violins and violas. I don't care when producers adorn libraries with myriad or plugins and articulations to correct major deficiencies in the acoustic quality of their samples. Surely, articulations and plug-ins are very valuable, but in the main I still want realistic samples. It's like in the '60s when FM Stereo became pervasive, HiFi manufacturers added remote control to their equipment. Did this make FM sound better? To me the main problem is that, even if there's such a library, one spends tweaking it for weeks, sometimes months to obtain decent sound. I'd like to make lots of music, not technology (which I love, but not when it hinders my work). My pile of sketched is getting very high because I am doing much more technology than producing music. Thank you for reading. *** My question comes out of my heart, and in no way put up to provoke any controversy or spite, but serious discussion *** S.

VSL strings do have their edges, I'll agree to that, but I would also argue that the sound one can obtain with them can be more then "decent" and is significantly more flexible and natural than that of any other library I have worked with.

(Bach and Schumann examples here should demonstrate the point sufficently.)

Once you have created an appropriate spatial setup  for a production (this is absolutely essential, and you may consider the advantages of MIR in this regard) and have acquired some critical skills in shaping the performance via MIDI-controllers, nothing as weeks or months is necessary to achieve a good sounding performance. I did the Bach production above in what would be an equivalent to 3 working days, nothing more.

Sylva, if you don't mind my asking, what library do you use?

@sylva said:

My gripe is that from such an expensive library I was expecting better strings. In general, no matter what forum I am on, there is none that doesn't have multiple threads treating (and complaining about) the same problem. Again, I am not trying to be unreasonable. Sample technology has its limitations which peak at high strings. This is a situation where sample manufacturers fall short time and time again, and I think they should work (much) harder at giving the user better out-of-the-box performance

In my experience, high string register of the VSL is not more difficult to tame then the deep or the middle registers, I would say the quality is consistent throughout. I have very limited experience with other libraries (the only other I use is HSO as a complement to VSL, and HSO is very consistent in sound quality). To join noldar in priving 😊, if it's not a secret, which library do you use?

@sylva said:

Goran, I can't listen to your examples because my dial-up won't download fast enough. Is there a possibility to download the files themselves? Thanks, S.

Yes, if you send me your mail adress (f.e. via forum private message), I'll be happy to send you the files via yousendit (you'll then get a download link from them). Thank you, G.

P.S. Funny you should mention Bruckner in your previous post, as I also did the opening section of the Seventh Symphony with VSL (an older but still "decent" sounding vintage-style production I would say, which I can also send you).