This post of Fred's is one of the best things I've ever read on this forum.

These are things that really disturb me so I may be obnoxious in my responses. But one other thing is that there are two types of stealing or unoriginality - one is the stealing done by a hack who knowingly cobbles together something he thinks will please somebody; the other is the kind of stealing that is done by someone who loves and is obsessed by music and so cannot help copying that which he loves. The first is contemptible, the second is inevitable if you are a real composer and should be done without worry, because once you do it you will outgrow it. I think that's what Stravinski was talking about. It is funny that one of the most shockingly original composers in the history of music would say that. But if he "stole" he did so in the way that Shakespeare did - everything he touched or found or adapted he made his own.

William, I can assure you, it´s *both* in my case...
I´m grown in the scene of composers severely fighting for originality and radicalism, because they believe that only these works will survive them. (Which might be true, after looking to the past.) Although there are sometimes really amazing works coming out of that scene I find myself more and more irritated by that concept. This relentless search for originality just stops my creativity. I can only compose when not thinking about art. I leave to the others judging if the resulting work is a piece of art or not. Of course I love it if my work is considered original but I honestly believe it´s out of my hands. Originality is something one has or has not, it´s not something to desperately search for.
To stay with Stravinsky and Shakespeare, who made everything their own. I think they simply could do no other. So they simply *were* original. But did they really care for it? I doubt it. At least from what I read of Stravinskys speaches and texts.
"All creation presupposes at its origin a sort of appetite that is brought on by the foretaste of discovery. ... This appetite that is aroused in me at the mere thought of putting in order musical elements that have attracted my attention is not all a fortuitous thing like inspiration, but as habitual and periodic, if not as constant, as a natural need.
This premonition of an obligation, this foretaste of a pleasure, this conditional reflex, as a modern physiologist would say, shows clearly that it is the idea of discovery and hard work that attracts me."
(from "poetics of music") A bit earlier he deconstructs the idea of inspiration.
Hm, I don´t know if that quote is relevant to our discussion here, but it´s an interesting one anyway.

Because I´m grown in that world (in where also filmmusic is worth nothing) I feel the urge to belittle my current works. But honestly I enjoy working on these things. All these formulas at least once in my life really moved me and I want to find out why. A formula isn´t a formula only because someone great once created it. An idea becomes a formula or clichée because it moved a lot of people. That is a real mystery to me and very interesting.

Thanks, Fred for these quotes and your thoughts. I can identify with a lot of it.

Bests,
- M

Mathis,

I think this Stravinsky quote is EXTREMELY relevant!

I was going to share a story I've posted here before, but I didn't want my message to get TOO long winded. However, your reply put me in mind of it once more. So, please forgive me for repeating myself...

Years ago while studying with Ziggy Hurwitz (whom I revere and owe my career to), I was having a particularly frustrating day. I would skip out of my day job for lessons, wanting desperately to be able to kiss it goodbye and write music for a living. Ziggy could tell something was wrong. When he inquired, I answered, "Dammit Ziggy. I just want to do something thats...thats...well..."

"Significant?", Ziggy asked - raising an eyebrow with a smile on his face.

"Well...yes!", I answered.

So what was his response to my dark moment of career desperation? He leaned toward me and quietly said, "Don't worry Bubby. You'll get over it."

At the time I thought he was just being flip. It was years later that I came to realize he was speaking of EXACTLY the same thing Stravinksy said in that quote. It's the need, the desire, the discovery that matter...not the recognition. Not even satisfying the goal of being 'original'. (How can we make that determination for ourselves, anyway?)

I realized that my wish to be significant was probably a guarantee that I never would be. I would be focused on entirely the wrong thing. (Not that it's impossible. But I suspect it would require a LOT more raw talent than I posess.)

It's one of the best lessons I ever learned from my friend and mentor.

Another is that it's never a good idea to use live monkeys in a musical performance. (Telling that story WOULD make this post long-winded.)

Fred Story

@"Fred Story
"[Musicians said:

talk of nothing but money and jobs. Give me business- men every time. They really are interested in music and art."
- Jean Sibelius, explaining why he rarely invited musicians to his home.
Fred Story

Hahhaa! Thats great! I knew Sibelius was one of my favourite composers for a reason. Thats brilliant! I can't STAND having musicians in my house. It's usually an absolute pain. A nightmare. I hadn't heard that one before. Excellent! And the other way round too!

I mean, have you ever been in a drummers house. I say house, fairly loosely. Ususally it's a flat, but mostly one room. It's like the place has imploded (not exploded) and everything's finished up in the centre of the room. You dare'nt touch anything, or sit down even. Not all drummers, but mostly was my experience. Litter and porn all over the bloody place. What IS it about drummers. Why can't they be tidy? Keyboard players, on the other hand, are extremely tidy and well-balanced, but they're still a pain if one has to talk to them for more than, say, 20 seconds. Guitarists don't read books. They read magazines. Knowledge of string gauges will get you into their good books. Be honest, I mean, BE honest. How many times has one wished for that thing they use in Men in Black. The thing that they flash in your eyes. [:'(] [:O]ops: [[[[;)]]]] [[[[;)]]]] [[[[;)]]]]

Mathis, I'll send you some truffles as soon as they're ready. They grow in my mother's garden. I love them, but I can't eat them, because I'm allergic.

What was I saying? [*-)]

Bests

Paul

Fred, great story! And now tell the one with your live monkeys. I insist on that. As a compensation I will send you one or two of the truffles Paul will send me.

Geez, Mathis I can't tell you anything. You should be teaching somewhere. Why do you ask for advice? You're far more together in what you're doing than I am. I'm a fragmented, schizoid nutcase on the brink of the Abyss.

I do not disagree with anything being said here, and would add:

Consciously trying to create "Great Art" will result in shit.

The only way to do real art is to keep working hard (and eat occasionally).

Inspiration is an illusion in the old sense of a sudden, divine flash - it's more like having a little idea buzzing around that you suddenly just notice and think - that's o.k. I'll try that. And it turns out to be useable or maybe good.

There is absolutely no way anyone can ever know if what he does is significant. Even the most famous guys. In the 19th Century, the three greatest composers ever were known by everyone to be: Beethoven, Brahms and Spohr.

Beethoven, Brahms and WHO?

So you can only hope you will not be that "WHO?" guy but there is no way to know. So f*** it. You have to just do your best.

p.s. And please, Ludwig Spohr fans on the internet - don't write me indignantly. Maybe his day will come again. Maybe. Possibly? Nah...

@Another User said:

I'm a fragmented, schizoid nutcase on the brink of the Abyss.

Good expression. So let´s move on [[;)]]

Move on?

From where to where?

The only place I have to go is over the edge.

@PaulR said:

keyboard players, on the other hand, are extremely tidy and well-balanced, but they're still a pain if one has to talk to them for more than, say, 20 seconds.

Guilty as charged.

Now who wants to know anything about anything in the universe?

Step right up.

Dave

George Gershwin, "I would like to study composition with you."

Igor Stravinsky, "How much money did you make last year?"

Gershwin, "One hunded and fifty thousand dollars" (Huge sum then)

Stravinsky, "I should be studying with you."

DC

Um, yes, Bill, that was the cheap joke. Mine are often too cheap, sorry.

@dpcon said:

Guilty as charged.Now who wants to know anything about anything in the universe?Step right up.Dave

Hahha! Now Dave, you know we're both keyboard players. I've got talking to myself down to 7 seconds........ have I mentioned what I think about Cellists and Double Bass players?

[:D]

Regarding formulas, I've never relied upon them because it's easier for me to try and come up with something than painstakingly model after something else. I know because I have to knock off identical copies of rock and pop tracks for TV and it's a big pain and not at all artistic or even musical. I threw in a John Williams type passage in "New Life" as a complete joke to mock that kind of thing.

However, if unfortunately some lame director wants you to do something very close to a temp track and won't budge, you either compromise or quit. Take your name off the credits if your unhappy with what you had to deliver. But if a little hack work allows you to keep working on a symphony well why not? Or, do something else to support yourself if it's too painful.

I think each composer knows if he has any artistic integrity. He knows whether he's copying someone else's work or just copying good musical conventions such as orchestral voicings, textures, or balance.

If I could make a killing in any business that totally freed me up artistically I would. Sometimes that other business is the music business.

Dave Connor

"Sometimes that other business is the music business."


That's a good point.

@PaulR said:

Guitarists don't read books. They read magazines. Knowledge of string gauges will get you into their good books. Be honest, I mean, BE honest. How many times has one wished for that thing they use in Men in Black. The thing that they flash in your eyes. [:'(] [:O]ops: [[[[;)]]]] [[[[;)]]]] [[[[;)]]]]

I have to say that this guitarists characterisation is fully true. And after 20 years of guitar playing I still didn´t find the right strings. [8o|]

What´s that Men in Black thing? I didn´t see the film.

@mathis said:

What´s that Men in Black thing? I didn´t see the film.

Look Mathis my friend, I've just been hammered at golf, so having a bit of a mid-life crisis at the moment. However, Men in Black is well worth watching and has some genuinely funny moments in it. Buddy-Buddy movie with a twist. The flashing thing, is flashed into a subjects eyes and they immediately forget everything. If I had one of those, I would spend most days flashing it into my own eyes, especially after a game of golf. OK!

[6]

Fred, pleeeeeease! The live monkey story!
Otherwise I really need to get this men in black thing since it won´t get out of my head.

It's really not THAT funny a story. One of those, 'you had to be there' things. I'll try to keep it short.

I studied with Ziggy for 7 years, and during that time was already doing a fair amount of commercial and TV work. It was great, because I could bring him my works-in-progress to critique. Most of the time his reviews were helpful and insightful. But, being the enormous kidder that he was, sometimes he liked to pull one over on me. And he always COULD, since his opinion mattered to much to me.

Also during this time, I was writing and performing regularly with a local jazz group, and we had just recorded our first album. I was VERY proud of the fact that we had recorded it live to two-track. No overdubs, no edits. I couldn't WAIT to play it for Ziggy.

We had hired a well-known percussionist to play on the recording with us, and on one of the latin-flavored tunes, he had done this really cool cuica part. Our engineer really liked it, so he had mixed it a little hotter than I would have. If you can imagine the sound of the cuica for a moment, HOO-hoo-hoo. HOO-hoo-hoo.

So Ziggy is listening to the tune, and about halfway through turns to me and very seriously says,

"All recorded live, huh?"

"Yep"

"No overdubs? Everybody playing live in the studio?"

"That's right"

"Really?" (Long pause.) "Live monkeys, too?"

I played along. "I lied, Ziggy. No live monkeys"

"Good. They shit all over everything. NEVER use live monkeys."

You know, it just occured to me...I haven't used cuica on anything since.

Fred Story

[:D]

It *is* a funny story! Thanks for that!