I agree that lots more video could be done by VSL people, to explain all the detailss of the libraries, and the ways to go about working with them. A model in this would be all the video that Eric Persing himself did explaining RMX & later Omisphere.

VSL has undoubtedly lost lots of customers who are scared away before buying, by the lack of user friendly info. [B]

@Steve_DC said:

VSL reminds me of Adobe of a couple of years ago.  Great engineers talking to one another, leaving customers out of the conversation.  I DO find the website confusing -- try finding a video tutorial easily, for example. 

There are many great, impressive things about VSL, but website and documentation user friendliness is not among them.

End of rant ....

Kind regards, Steve

[G]

Thanks Steve, I was beginning to feel like I was the only one out there who was experiencing what you are and I thank you from the bottom of my heart for coming out with this.

I have this fictional book I am writing about a consumer uprising that takes place around the world as consumers take back their rights: Frustrated customers gather together and oversee the invitation of the Execs and producers at East West Soundsonline, Native Instruments, Steinberg and VSL (and Logic, Pro Tools, Sonar, too for good measure), provide them all with luxurious accommodations at one of Europe's finest resorts and then hold  them all there until they came out with user documentation, support websites and manuals that match what Microsoft and Microsoft  Press have done for Excel and Word.

http://www.amazon.com/Microsoft-Excel-2000-Step/dp/1572319747/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1281743378&sr=1-1

I wish VSL had a book like this but also NI, East West and Steinberg need to put one out. They need very badly to put out their version of this book.  A beginner spends more time overcoming basic user issues than anything else and music production takes a back seat. Look at the web sites for VSL and Steinberg and look at how many horrendous examples there are of folks lost because the makers of the goods turned their backs to the customer on the morning the software was marketed out into the stores. 
What is wanted is a didactic, pedagogical style in writing  (no videos PLEASE) that has as its basic premise one thing.

A list of how to do things.

Instructions

In

A list

Yes a list.

First

 do

    this.

Next,

   do

      this.

Step three, do this.

I would ask the reader to look at the book on Amazon's website listed above.

It is loaded with over 300 pages of explanations all done in this list format  followed by hundreds of examples. Steinberg is the worst at not understanding the value of having examples and loads their manual with hypothetical examples that are not grounded in concrete descriptions and fails to  connect examples  from one chapter to the next. No working on projects of Steinberg!

"Ha ha You poor slobs, Go Pro and hire an engineer"

  Logic is the best at carrying on about high flown, abstract theoretical examples that have no connection to the real world also. However, Steinberg is on this abstract wavelenght also, I would invite any of the readers of this tirade who are users of Cubase to turn to the chapter on the Logical editor in the Cubase user manual and imagine themselves faced with users who have 10 weeks of experince and see if they could make the Logical Editor do anything useful. Oh, but was I supposed to be software engineer before I use this stuff? Not according to the marketing hype![:@]

VSL does OK with the documentation for their products but only just. Again, I would invite the authors of VSL's documentation to take the book I have referenced above and produce something similar for the VSL products.

What is needed is a single volume, one source, in hand, that will allow the user to go beyond the beginning user state  to the edge of being a professional user; all of this  is to be in one book. I am aware that there are differences between using a spread sheet and using VST software but the principle for a user's manual is still the same.

Didactic

Pedagogical

Clear

Foolproof.

East West is lost in the Antarctic realms waiting for the effects of  global warming to release them, somehow their products reach the market from that vantage point but their location in that distant area would explain why not only does their stuff not work but they can't explain how it should work if it was ever going to really work.

The technology behind all of these products, (maybe even Microsoft's) is so hush and mysterious because it is not explained to the users by the engineers who made it. This is terribly unfair.  I purchase additional user manuals that I feel should be supplied with the purchase of the software  and yes all the software companies in the world fall down on this one-Adobe is about the best right now for looking up solutions on line. I understand paper manuals are passé so I can look up on line but again, the four Beasts of the VST world mentioned above are way behind Adobe and Microsoft. The reason for that is clear: an executive decision has been made to ignore the customer and to allow them to stumble along. After all, a professional arranger will have engineering resources to tap into that the amateur will not have so we, us music makers of the rabble, are left to munch on rinds and discards where ever we can take them.

Somehow this appeared twice.

@Steve_DC said:

There are many great, impressive things about VSL, but website and documentation user friendliness is not among them.

Reviving an old thread ...

First thing I would do in a re-design is ditch the fixed height and overflow control in #content_all_CS.  Can't middle-click scroll in a div with a fixed height (I don't have a mouse, I use a pen tablet).  Also, pressing 'Enter' on your keyboard (to drop down a line when replying, for instance) returns your view to the top of the fixed height div.  Why not just let the page flow down and let the browser handle the main content scroll like most sites?

I'm sorry, but the meaning of this last communication completely escapes me !

I'm regret to say that the meaning of a very large proportion of what is written by vsl for the benefit of their customers, is also a mystery. I have the greatest respect for your correspondent, Steve_DC, who wrote at length back in July about the very issues which have bothered me greatly for some considerable time.

Why, why , why (?) is it that vsl can not seem to get around to hiring the services of someone who can communicate and teach what is, for the average person, an extremely demanding and difficult subject: the use of their own software, which presumably (though you would not know it) they wish to sell ! They might be interested to know that this customer waited for about 2 years before plucking up the courage to buy the Special Edition. I took so long because (a) I couldn't understand from the web site what I needed, and (b) I was not at all sure, having studied the manuals and videos, that I would be able to get on top of it even if I bought it ! Well, I did buy it, and I think it's fabulous, but I'm still only scratching the surface, and understand very little. And that's why I have not upgraded (so far) to more expensive versions : I scared of wasting money !

I think most people are probably a bit like me - they are reluctant to admit that they don't understand something, especially when some people seem to have a most amazing understanding ! (I read the forum regularly). The use of VE comes to mind. Customers comment on it very favourably, but although I've studied the manual, and the video, and whatever else I been able to find (after exhaustive searching), I still am no nearer to understanding whether it's something I need: the point of it is just another mystery ! So of course, I'm not going to buy the Pro version ! Not until someone can explain how to use the free one!

The annoying thing is that VSL have received comments like these for some considerable time, and I've even noticed that they agree that their web site for example is not perfect. But what have they done about it ? Why are they making life so difficult for us ?

I don't like complaining. Like everyone else, I think the software is wonderful. I just wish they could tell me how to use it!

Best wishes

Uppercefnfaes

I agree. One of the most amazing products but one of the most difficult websites to navigate. Why not redo it?!

Also not easy to purchase from the site. I end up going to a 3rd party site usually.

@antonnzld said:

 I end up going to a 3rd party site usually.

 

So do I but not because of VSL's website.  I can usually find VSL's products 15% to 20% cheaper at adkproaudio.com here in the states.

@jasensmith said:

I can usually find VSL's products 15% to 20% cheaper at adkproaudio.com here in the states.

that's simply not true, but of course it is up to dealers donating money to their customers ... a few examples

edit: btw - they should get their product descriptions corrected ... eg. there is no such thing like a strings package

@jasensmith said:

I can usually find VSL's products 15% to 20% cheaper at adkproaudio.com here in the states.

that's simply not true, but of course it is up to dealers donating money to their customers ... a few examples

edit: btw - they should get their product descriptions corrected ... eg. there is no such thing like a strings package

Hello Christain and Happy New Year to you and yours,

Did you pull these prices off of the website?  Yeah, generally I call them directly and they qoute me about about 20$ to 50$ less then what they have listed on the site.  For example, I paid $350.00 for Solo Strings 1 Standard which comes out to about a 14% discount (OK maybe Math wasn't my favorite subject).  I'm kicking myself for not buying the full library because then the discount would have been substantial but that's another story.

Now, it could be, that because I've done about $10,000 worth of business with them in the past that I get a so-called "Prefered Customer" discount. In which case, good for me, but for anybody else in the states, you're milage may vary.  I suggest you call them directly as suggested on their site.  They are very helpful and I haven't had a single issue with the system I purchased from them.

AS far as their "Strings Package" is concerned, well, it's probably just a proprietary promotional package that they sell on their site.  is it any different then the "Vienna Symphonic Library Super Package" from Musician'sfriend?  Other than different libraries?      

I do agree that VSL does not do a good job of teaching their users how to use their software for the very best results (especially if you have ever experienced the help and response you get from many of the other companies out there.  I just wrote a huge thread on this in the general the other day out of pure frustration so this is nothing new).  I don't believe for one second, that this is what they want to do.  I have never had anything but amazing results from them when dealing with a ticket, or support issue (or sales related questions).  I do not always agree with their decision but none the less I have never had them ignore my requests or fail to handle them one way or another.

The sad part is that their product is simply the very best (I own so many of the competition).  Perhaps they do need to hire people to do training videos, write tutorials in pdf and create a slew of multi's and presets for us.  Did you see how fast they created a multi-instrument in the VI Pro video?  I personally think the videos they make are excellent.  We need many many more though just like them.  Company created full orchestra multi's and section combinations would be amazing.

I have come so far with this product it's unreal but at the cost of many many years and incredible pain and sacrifice.  Right after my rant the other day I managed to "accidentally" make the exact sound I have been trying to make for years.  I literally didn't even mean to do it.  I accidentally highlighted way to many cells at once and layered more instruments than I needed to and boom.  My jaw hit the floor when it was exactly what I needed.  The problem with this is (no fanboy jumping in saying see you can do it! there are plenty of threads for you to do that in) it took me an incredible amount of years to obtain only to obtain it on accident.  A few other vendor products that I use and have used in the past only took me a few weeks to learn and master because between the tutorials they made, the free multi's and scripts they developed for us, the user file exchange system they had in place and the actual owners spending time with you on the phone.  (I can't tell you how many times Gary Garritan has talked to me personally on the phone walking me through perfecting his software at almost any hour of the night).

The request to have a personal user area for us all to collaborate our templates and ideas (A file exchange system) has gone untouched for so long we've stopped bringing it up.  As far as the website design is concerned, take a look at the new cool websites that VSL is building.  http://community.vsl.co.at/forums/p/26549/174733.aspx#174733

Most of us who have been around for a long time know that VSL is incredibly secretive (I am sure there are good and bad reasons for this).  Even if they had something coming in the wind you probably will never know it until either just before the release, or literally in a newsletter and post on this forum of its release.  Maybe they have something in the wind or perhaps they are taking the standpoint of "we don't want to over complicate things".  If that's the standpoint taken, they need to realize that they are already over complicated, and they need to simplify it.  Sometimes when things seem so clear to you, you forget just how difficult it really is/was.

Maestro2be

cgernaey:

I fully agree that:

- The folks at VSL are incredibly helpful. They respond on these user forums regularly, which many companies don't.

- Their products are the best

- Their tutorial videos are excellent.

I also agree with you about needing many more tutorials. I recently went through the VI Pro videos and by slowly and painstakingly going through the one movie (at times frame by frame), I managed to create the Brass Stack that Paul made (learning a lot in the process). I imagine that Paul and co could sit down and create hundreds of VERY useful presets and matrices in an afternoon.

The fact is that they are so familiar with their products that it's easy for them and they might take this for granted. In the movie referred to [ Multi-Instrument Presets – Stacking Instruments], Paul just jumps around and grabs certain patches to combine in his Brass Stack. For me to even decide on or try to find suitable patches for such a stack would take a long time.

This is a time of incredible access to choice and almost unlimited stuff to choose from. We are bombarded by thousands of possibilities and the result is having to do long searches for the right sound before even starting to compose music. It would be immensely helpful if the good folks at VSL would assist (even more than they already do) by providing example matrices and presets like the Brass Stack discussed above.

Colin