Vienna Symphonic Library Forum
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In the past 24 hours, we have 2 new thread(s), 15 new post(s) and 54 new user(s).

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    @Another User said:

    I know their was limitations with 64bit on Leopard but after a year or so, where is MIR for Mac? Don't tell me to buy a PC please, their is no question. Anyway it's not a question of saying wich is better. It's the fact that you are developing and SALLING mac softwares, and for the same price. So why should it be better on the other side? Maybe it's not so better on the PC side but when I see the number of thread concerning Mac versions plus my own experience, that's my conclusion.

      

    The problem with MIR, as I understand it, was not just a software problem, but also a hardware problem. I'm sure that when MIR Pro is released, there will be a Mac version along the line. There is nothing to stop you buying a PC (or even a Mac running Windows) and running MIR on a second computer now. In any case I doubt that your current computer would be powerful enough to run MIR, never mind MIR and Logic at the same time.

    DG


  • I have to agree for new visitors and users the VSL website is rather dauting and confusing.  I have an understanding of it now but it took awhile.


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    I have a problem with the VSL forums, which I raised in this thread:

    VSL website does not work on an iPad

    I was forced to use an iPad for 2 months after undergoing back surgery, and it was impossible to post to the forums from the iPad. I had no such problems with other forums which I visit.

    Perhaps the forums (and website?) need a complete re-think......


  • The website could indeed improve in terms of user friendliness. From a webdeveloper perspective, having a site with complex functionality work in every browser on every platform is, well, perhaps not unheard of, but, rather unusual, at least in my humble experience, both as a user and webdeveloper.


  • Hi, I realize I'm new on the website and also a new VSL user. However, I also find the website design horrible. Don't get me wrong, it looks good and the code works alright, but when a new user, like me, is trying to find something, it's an absolute nightmare. When I first heard about Vienna Imperial I actually had to google it, because the site was so badly organized. It still is. Even when I had used this site for a couple of months, bought Vienna Imperial and started to look for updates, it was still a major pain in my personal ass. I knew I would find them in the User Area, but where's the good old "Updates" button? Of course I eventually found what I was looking for, but it could have been so much easier. You really need to figure out a LOGICAL way how the web site works, so even a new user can find what he's looking for. -Miika

  • VSL reminds me of Adobe of a couple of years ago.  Great engineers talking to one another, leaving customers out of the conversation.  I DO find the website confusing -- try finding a video tutorial easily, for example. 

    Or try searching for a particular audio demo file.  Example: I am interested in their reduced price offer and was trying to find the Schindler's List demo, which I remembered hearing and liking.  Try typing "Schindler" into the search field on the top right of their web page.  Zip. Nichts. Yes you can find it after several minutes search.

    And then we have the Vienna Instrument, a big improvement over the old EXS method of loading instruments in Logic.  When VI came out, it was very poorly explained -- I just dropped the idea for a while, not KNOWING WHAT TO DO WITH IT.   So VSL has lost sales from me, because they didn't explain what this new product would do for me.  Maybe if your expert in MIDI and have been composing for a decade on Logic going back to its German origins, maybe then no explanation is necessary.  How many people fit that definition?

    And while we are on the subject of explanations, how about the term "Velocity Crossfades"?  Sounds like something you do with a Porsche in a turn.  Yes, I know that in midi "velocity" is the method by which the speed of striking a keyboard is translated into the loudness or volume of the particular key as it will be recorded -- the quicker the strike, the louder the tone.  But how do you "crossfade" loudness, why not just reduce the velocity?  Well, what is NOT explained is that instruments have been recorded at different levels of loudness on the same note; their timbre changes with loudness at the same pitch.  So we are achieving greater fidelity by changing the layer of the instrument as its loudness changes.  That is what "Velocity Crossfades" is about, I think.  I figured this out about two months ago.  That is what the "VelLay" notation is on the instruments, the number of loudness layers.  Do we find this in the manuals?  Here is the explanation in the Vienna Instruments manual:

    "The Velocity x-fade button switches global velocity crossfading on or off. The Vel xf slider below shows the current status of the controller. These two controllers allow you to switch from normal velocity layer changes (MIDI note-on velocity) to crossfading via controller where you can play at the velocity of your choice regardless of the strength of the keystroke." Why would you bother?  Not explained.

    We are not told, as far as I have been able to determine, from VSL itself at what point in the 0 - 127 midi scale the switch occurs, so we can see, when we are composing, whether it would make sense to use the cross fade function, or not worry about it, because our notes are not crossing a volume threshold into one of the other volume layers of the instrument.  See if the VSL video tutorial on this subject explains this, assuming I am more or less correct in my explanation.

    And, again, back at the website, have you tried to watch a VSL video using streaming mode?  I am able to watch youtube, bbc, and other news site videos generally fine.  Without fail, there are long, LONG waits, pauses and hiccups in the video material coming from VSL.  It always seems to stop at the crucial moment of Paul's explanation.  Result:  you have to download the video file, another long wait.  PITA.  Perhaps you folks in Austria get a better signal, being close to home.  Not good.

    They have a great, sophisticated product.  Why are they hiding it?  Who benefits except an exclusive few? 

    I go on:  Where are the practical tutorials showing step-by-step installation and basic use on popular software platforms like Logic and Pro Tools?  "To get up an running, first you do this, then this, etc."  They have done as much for their confusing licensing key.  You have to dig all this stuff out on use with software like Logic, the best stuff being a few available videos on youtube. 

    Where is the "Support" section of the website with seachable knowledge documents on technical issues?  You have to sort through a forum hoping someone asked the right question and guessing the rights words to search for. True, for those who have the temerity you can send an email to corporate headquarters, and they do respond promptly, to their credit.  But it is embarassing to ask, and one really does feel reluctant to occupy the time of some really senior people who answer these emails, with basic questions.

    And my last example:  there is a podcast that you can get through iTunes called "VSL podcast"  Terrific!  Except the fellow who runs it stopped broadcasting last year and there are only a lttle more than half a dozen episodes available from iTunes.  But here's the example:  in one of the most recent episodes, an established composer for films is interviewed.  He uses VSL instruments!  He is asked about the VSL products he uses.  It was the instruments before the Horizon series!  This important composer, interviewed on "VSL podcast" in 2009, was unaware of the new 24 bit instrument collection or Vienna Instruments server, or any of the other software tools available from this company.  I think the program host was embarassed to let him know he was using old software.  You would think the composer would know the latest developments and be part of VSL's marketing group, the way Steinway and Yamaha do with their pianos.  Again, customers, ideal customers, in the dark, on VSL's own program.

    There are many great, impressive things about VSL, but website and documentation user friendliness is not among them.

    End of rant ....

    Kind regards, Steve


  • I agree that lots more video could be done by VSL people, to explain all the detailss of the libraries, and the ways to go about working with them. A model in this would be all the video that Eric Persing himself did explaining RMX & later Omisphere.

    VSL has undoubtedly lost lots of customers who are scared away before buying, by the lack of user friendly info. [B]


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    @Steve_DC said:

    VSL reminds me of Adobe of a couple of years ago.  Great engineers talking to one another, leaving customers out of the conversation.  I DO find the website confusing -- try finding a video tutorial easily, for example. 

    There are many great, impressive things about VSL, but website and documentation user friendliness is not among them.

    End of rant ....

    Kind regards, Steve

    [G]

    Thanks Steve, I was beginning to feel like I was the only one out there who was experiencing what you are and I thank you from the bottom of my heart for coming out with this.

    I have this fictional book I am writing about a consumer uprising that takes place around the world as consumers take back their rights: Frustrated customers gather together and oversee the invitation of the Execs and producers at East West Soundsonline, Native Instruments, Steinberg and VSL (and Logic, Pro Tools, Sonar, too for good measure), provide them all with luxurious accommodations at one of Europe's finest resorts and then hold  them all there until they came out with user documentation, support websites and manuals that match what Microsoft and Microsoft  Press have done for Excel and Word.

    http://www.amazon.com/Microsoft-Excel-2000-Step/dp/1572319747/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1281743378&sr=1-1

    I wish VSL had a book like this but also NI, East West and Steinberg need to put one out. They need very badly to put out their version of this book.  A beginner spends more time overcoming basic user issues than anything else and music production takes a back seat. Look at the web sites for VSL and Steinberg and look at how many horrendous examples there are of folks lost because the makers of the goods turned their backs to the customer on the morning the software was marketed out into the stores. 
    What is wanted is a didactic, pedagogical style in writing  (no videos PLEASE) that has as its basic premise one thing.

    A list of how to do things.

    Instructions

    In

     

    A list

    Yes a list.

    First

     do

        this.

    Next,

       do

          this.

    Step three, do this.

    I would ask the reader to look at the book on Amazon's website listed above.

    It is loaded with over 300 pages of explanations all done in this list format  followed by hundreds of examples. Steinberg is the worst at not understanding the value of having examples and loads their manual with hypothetical examples that are not grounded in concrete descriptions and fails to  connect examples  from one chapter to the next. No working on projects of Steinberg!

    "Ha ha You poor slobs, Go Pro and hire an engineer"

      Logic is the best at carrying on about high flown, abstract theoretical examples that have no connection to the real world also. However, Steinberg is on this abstract wavelenght also, I would invite any of the readers of this tirade who are users of Cubase to turn to the chapter on the Logical editor in the Cubase user manual and imagine themselves faced with users who have 10 weeks of experince and see if they could make the Logical Editor do anything useful. Oh, but was I supposed to be software engineer before I use this stuff? Not according to the marketing hype![:@]

    VSL does OK with the documentation for their products but only just. Again, I would invite the authors of VSL's documentation to take the book I have referenced above and produce something similar for the VSL products.

    What is needed is a single volume, one source, in hand, that will allow the user to go beyond the beginning user state  to the edge of being a professional user; all of this  is to be in one book. I am aware that there are differences between using a spread sheet and using VST software but the principle for a user's manual is still the same.

    Didactic

    Pedagogical

    Clear

    Foolproof.

    East West is lost in the Antarctic realms waiting for the effects of  global warming to release them, somehow their products reach the market from that vantage point but their location in that distant area would explain why not only does their stuff not work but they can't explain how it should work if it was ever going to really work.

    The technology behind all of these products, (maybe even Microsoft's) is so hush and mysterious because it is not explained to the users by the engineers who made it. This is terribly unfair.  I purchase additional user manuals that I feel should be supplied with the purchase of the software  and yes all the software companies in the world fall down on this one-Adobe is about the best right now for looking up solutions on line. I understand paper manuals are passé so I can look up on line but again, the four Beasts of the VST world mentioned above are way behind Adobe and Microsoft. The reason for that is clear: an executive decision has been made to ignore the customer and to allow them to stumble along. After all, a professional arranger will have engineering resources to tap into that the amateur will not have so we, us music makers of the rabble, are left to munch on rinds and discards where ever we can take them.


  • Somehow this appeared twice.


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    @Steve_DC said:

    There are many great, impressive things about VSL, but website and documentation user friendliness is not among them.

    I must agree with you Steve. Your examples are spot on. I really feel left alone in the latest Airbus: amazing technology, potentially the best aircraft in the world, but they forgot to tell me how to fly the beast!!

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    @jammusique said:

    VSL has undoubtedly lost lots of customers who are scared away before buying, by the lack of user friendly info.

    Almost scared away the customers that are committed to using it[what is otherwise a sterling product] as well; I struggled for many weeks to learn about the use of the articulations and still am not sure how all of them can be utilized.

    I think software makers should hire professional educators who know that there is a difference between abstact principles and applications of those principles. In a perfect world announcing the theory of how something works would suffice for anyone to step up and use it. But this is not a perfect world.

    To put another angle on this, all engineers who have graduated from university have taken classes along these line-physics then applied physics-math, then applied math. But the poor unfortunate who has not had an engineering background will know little of this whole process.


  • Reviving an old thread ...

    First thing I would do in a re-design is ditch the fixed height and overflow control in #content_all_CS.  Can't middle-click scroll in a div with a fixed height (I don't have a mouse, I use a pen tablet).  Also, pressing 'Enter' on your keyboard (to drop down a line when replying, for instance) returns your view to the top of the fixed height div.  Why not just let the page flow down and let the browser handle the main content scroll like most sites?


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    I'm sorry, but the meaning of this last communication completely escapes me !

    I'm regret to say that the meaning of a very large proportion of what is written by vsl for the benefit of their customers, is also a mystery. I have the greatest respect for your correspondent, Steve_DC, who wrote at length back in July about the very issues which have bothered me greatly for some considerable time.

    Why, why , why (?) is it that vsl can not seem to get around to hiring the services of someone who can communicate and teach what is, for the average person, an extremely demanding and difficult subject: the use of their own software, which presumably (though you would not know it) they wish to sell ! They might be interested to know that this customer waited for about 2 years before plucking up the courage to buy the Special Edition. I took so long because (a) I couldn't understand from the web site what I needed, and (b) I was not at all sure, having studied the manuals and videos, that I would be able to get on top of it even if I bought it ! Well, I did buy it, and I think it's fabulous, but I'm still only scratching the surface, and understand very little. And that's why I have not upgraded (so far) to more expensive versions : I scared of wasting money !

    I think most people are probably a bit like me - they are reluctant to admit that they don't understand something, especially when some people seem to have a most amazing understanding ! (I read the forum regularly). The use of VE comes to mind. Customers comment on it very favourably, but although I've studied the manual, and the video, and whatever else I been able to find (after exhaustive searching), I still am no nearer to understanding whether it's something I need: the point of it is just another mystery ! So of course, I'm not going to buy the Pro version ! Not until someone can explain how to use the free one!

    The annoying thing is that VSL have received comments like these for some considerable time, and I've even noticed that they agree that their web site for example is not perfect. But what have they done about it ? Why are they making life so difficult for us ?

    I don't like complaining. Like everyone else, I think the software is wonderful. I just wish they could tell me how to use it!

    Best wishes

    Uppercefnfaes


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    Hello everybody,

    please contact our support team with any specific questions, after you have checked out our video tutorials (more than 2 hours of step-by step instructions and examples).

    Uppercefnfaes, I see this is your first post - let´s start to communicate constructively [:)]

    We´ll be happy to help!

    Best,

    Paul


    Paul Kopf Head of Product Marketing, Social Media and Support
  • I agree. One of the most amazing products but one of the most difficult websites to navigate. Why not redo it?!

    Also not easy to purchase from the site. I end up going to a 3rd party site usually.


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    @antonnzld said:

     I end up going to a 3rd party site usually.

     

     

    So do I but not because of VSL's website.  I can usually find VSL's products 15% to 20% cheaper at adkproaudio.com here in the states.


  • What about the download instruments? they have to come from the VSL site don't they?

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    @jasensmith said:

    I can usually find VSL's products 15% to 20% cheaper at adkproaudio.com here in the states.
     

    that's simply not true, but of course it is up to dealers donating money to their customers ... a few examples

     

    collection (std lib) VSL adkproaudio
    harps 195 179  8,21%
    special keyboards 245 229  6,53%
    winds package 2.480 2.329  6,09%
    strings package 2.870 2.699  5,96%
    elements 295 275  6,78%
    symphonic cube 3.360 3.199  4,79%
    solo strings 405 379  6,42%
    chamber strings II 405 379  6,42%
    konzerthaus organ 405 379  6,42%
    saxophones 425 399  6,12%
    special edition 420 399  5,00%
    special brass 425 399  6,12%

     

    edit: btw - they should get their product descriptions corrected ... eg. there is no such thing like a strings package


    and remember: only a CRAY can run an endless loop in just three seconds.
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    @jasensmith said:

    I can usually find VSL's products 15% to 20% cheaper at adkproaudio.com here in the states.
     

    that's simply not true, but of course it is up to dealers donating money to their customers ... a few examples

    collection (std lib) VSL adkproaudio
    harps 195 179  8,21%
    special keyboards 245 229  6,53%
    winds package 2.480 2.329  6,09%
    strings package 2.870 2.699  5,96%
    elements 295 275  6,78%
    symphonic cube 3.360 3.199  4,79%
    solo strings 405 379  6,42%
    chamber strings II 405 379  6,42%
    konzerthaus organ 405 379  6,42%
    saxophones 425 399  6,12%
    special edition 420 399  5,00%
    special brass 425 399  6,12%

    edit: btw - they should get their product descriptions corrected ... eg. there is no such thing like a strings package

     

    Hello Christain and Happy New Year to you and yours,

    Did you pull these prices off of the website?  Yeah, generally I call them directly and they qoute me about about 20$ to 50$ less then what they have listed on the site.  For example, I paid $350.00 for Solo Strings 1 Standard which comes out to about a 14% discount (OK maybe Math wasn't my favorite subject).  I'm kicking myself for not buying the full library because then the discount would have been substantial but that's another story.

    Now, it could be, that because I've done about $10,000 worth of business with them in the past that I get a so-called "Prefered Customer" discount. In which case, good for me, but for anybody else in the states, you're milage may vary.  I suggest you call them directly as suggested on their site.  They are very helpful and I haven't had a single issue with the system I purchased from them.

    AS far as their "Strings Package" is concerned, well, it's probably just a proprietary promotional package that they sell on their site.  is it any different then the "Vienna Symphonic Library Super Package" from Musician'sfriend?  Other than different libraries?      


  • I do agree that VSL does not do a good job of teaching their users how to use their software for the very best results (especially if you have ever experienced the help and response you get from many of the other companies out there.  I just wrote a huge thread on this in the general the other day out of pure frustration so this is nothing new).  I don't believe for one second, that this is what they want to do.  I have never had anything but amazing results from them when dealing with a ticket, or support issue (or sales related questions).  I do not always agree with their decision but none the less I have never had them ignore my requests or fail to handle them one way or another.

    The sad part is that their product is simply the very best (I own so many of the competition).  Perhaps they do need to hire people to do training videos, write tutorials in pdf and create a slew of multi's and presets for us.  Did you see how fast they created a multi-instrument in the VI Pro video?  I personally think the videos they make are excellent.  We need many many more though just like them.  Company created full orchestra multi's and section combinations would be amazing.

    I have come so far with this product it's unreal but at the cost of many many years and incredible pain and sacrifice.  Right after my rant the other day I managed to "accidentally" make the exact sound I have been trying to make for years.  I literally didn't even mean to do it.  I accidentally highlighted way to many cells at once and layered more instruments than I needed to and boom.  My jaw hit the floor when it was exactly what I needed.  The problem with this is (no fanboy jumping in saying see you can do it! there are plenty of threads for you to do that in) it took me an incredible amount of years to obtain only to obtain it on accident.  A few other vendor products that I use and have used in the past only took me a few weeks to learn and master because between the tutorials they made, the free multi's and scripts they developed for us, the user file exchange system they had in place and the actual owners spending time with you on the phone.  (I can't tell you how many times Gary Garritan has talked to me personally on the phone walking me through perfecting his software at almost any hour of the night).

    The request to have a personal user area for us all to collaborate our templates and ideas (A file exchange system) has gone untouched for so long we've stopped bringing it up.  As far as the website design is concerned, take a look at the new cool websites that VSL is building.  http://community.vsl.co.at/forums/p/26549/174733.aspx#174733

    Most of us who have been around for a long time know that VSL is incredibly secretive (I am sure there are good and bad reasons for this).  Even if they had something coming in the wind you probably will never know it until either just before the release, or literally in a newsletter and post on this forum of its release.  Maybe they have something in the wind or perhaps they are taking the standpoint of "we don't want to over complicate things".  If that's the standpoint taken, they need to realize that they are already over complicated, and they need to simplify it.  Sometimes when things seem so clear to you, you forget just how difficult it really is/was.

    Maestro2be