@jeremyroberts said:

It is then up to you to figure out how to replace the auths

There is technology and knowledge on earth that can solve the problem.

There is money to solve the problem or more money made when problem is solved (at least I'm not buying anything more untill it's solved).

There is just lack of ambition, which I hope will change thanks to this thread.

If the dongle fails, you can send it back and the licence would be transferred to a new dongle. Always worth having a spare, empty dongle for safety.

For power outages, you really need to get some anti-spike protection. if you don't, you are risking more than just the dongle.

As far as insurance, you will need to shop around, because many insurers won't cover software. However, it is possible to get cover.

DG

Hallo!

How does the watermark system work? Thanks for pointing out this new set of strings, didn't know about their existance.

Did anyone get a chance to try Waves TLC? That really sounds like a great solution. I wonder what those who tried it think of it, wheteher there where issues etc.

Concerning the damaged dongles: each company is free to deal independently with the damaged or malfunctioning keys. As far as I've heard, Vienna is willing to transfer the licenses (i.e. to make them activable again) once you send the bad dongle back and buy a new one.

Cheers,
Cesare 

Watermarking adds a unhearable signal to each sample e.g.: Add in frequency ranges which can not be heard some data.

If this data is different for any sold copy it is quite easy to find the person who put the samples to some file share systems and eact accordingly.

Also if someone publishes music with these stolen samples you can still figure it out and (assuming you get the identity) can sue these people.

Similar technologies are also used for movies to figure out in which cinema the movie has been stolen

In any case you need some pretty strong watermark which can not be deleted or gets removed after some format changing, so just the frequency thing is way to weak.

Details: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_watermarking

At the end it is kind of philosophy, if you invest time in protecting your things, or invest time in sueing guys who distribute the samples and and guys who use it. But it might also be impact on location (Most probably US courts bring more money then Austrian courts)

Re: Watermarking

VSL has evaluated advanced watermarking technologies several times. For our needs in the context of high-quality orchestral samples and related software products, the technology has a few problems:

- A sample may undergo ten or more audio processing steps, before being mixed with dozens of other audio signals. As soon as the strength of the watermark is anywhere near the robustness which is necessary to "survive" in a scenario like this, it is already degrading the fidelity of the actual sample. That's not what VSL is after. ;-)

- Tracking down watermarks makes sense for broadcasting (especially web-radio) where it is useful for royalty and billing purposes. There are no comparable business models for our needs.

- Even if we assume the theoretical chance that watermarked samples would be traceable, it is more or less impossible and (most of all) completely uneconomic to take legal action in each case where misuse is suspected. ("... invest time in sueing guys who distribute the samples and and guys who use it", as Gabriel put it in the previous message.)

- Good (and especially individualized) watermarking technology is much more costly than common dongle-based copy protection.

- Copy protection not only protects our products actively against piracy, but also the investments of our customers. Watermarking alone can't do that, especially as it can't protect software, just "content".

In other words - no watermarking in VSL samples.

Kind regards,

@passenger57 said:

Is it the policy of VSL to replace a damaged or failing Vienna key if that key is returned? If thats the case I'd feel much better about making a big purchase.

I can't speak for VSL, but if your out of warranty dongle was damaged, and returned to them, and they did not restore your licenses to a new dongle that you provided, I think they would be out of business if this became public. I know of NO developer that will not replace authorizations on legitimately damaged dongles.

Loss or theft is something different.

But if the dongle simply fails, the developers have tools to verify the dongle is yours, and I can't imagine that any developer would not solve the failed dongle issue quickly.

As far as I've read around in the community I think there should be no problem with Vienna regarding the broken dongle: I think that once you send it back and get a new key they allow to transfer the licenses to the new key. Not all companies allow this but as far as I know Vienna does.

The problem is rather with the stolen/lost keys and whether there would be a method do give some peace of mind to the paying costumer.

Cheers,

Cesare

Dear Dietz,

It sounds like you can speak in name of Vienna. I do see your point about watermarking being very little resistant to further audio processing. Could you also tell us about Vienna point of view on the Wave TLC solution? or if they are thinking about other solutions?

One more thing. After my experience with the key system, I think that the argument that the key is there "to protect my interest as a costumer" feels quite weird. I really haven't gained anything from the key, it just costed me a lot of money. So I would kindly ask Vienna to stop using it as an argument since it almost feels offensive. If it is made in my interests let me chose whether and how to use it. Please, understand my point of view.

Best,

Cesare

@cesare.magri said:

Dear Dietz,

It sounds like you can speak in name of Vienna. I do see your point about watermarking being very little resistant to further audio processing. Could you also tell us about Vienna point of view on the Wave TLC solution? or if they are thinking about other solutions?

Cesare,

I can only speak for Vienna as long as questions about audio-engineering and -development arise. As pointed out, watermarking affects audio-quality (amongst other issues), that's why I felt in charge to reply.

That said, I positively know that VSL support is _very_ obliging when it comes to dongle-related problems. Most of the time a mail is sufficient. Trust for trust.

Excuse me, but this is an extremely shortsighted POV.

In a time while everybody and his aunt has access to myriads of cracked (read: stolen) software products, I see it as a BIG benefit for all paying customers (and especially professionals) that the tools they paid for are NOT available for free to John Doe next door. The day WILL come where this guy will get a certain job just because he can do it cheaper. This is where intact copy protection helps to protect _your_ investment. I can't see anything "weird" in it. Being an audio engineer for almost a quarter of a century now, I've seen non only one, but dozens of colleagues and partners stranding during the last decade or so, just because scumbags with "studios" full of cracked software were able to underbid their fees.

And no, I won't stop telling people the in's and out's of copy protection, thank you very much. If you feel offended, then there's not much I can do about it.

Ciao,

Dear Dietz,

Thank for your reply.

The point of view you present might partially apply to professionals. However, since the introduction of SE, Vienna has been also targetting hobbiests like me. As an hobbiest, I do gain no money from Vienna. A dongle:

- costs me money to buy

- slows down the code

- takes one of my USB ports

- I need to remember to bring it with me

- If I loose it I have to pay loads of money

- If they steal it I have to pay loads of money

- If it brakes I have to pay little (but still why?) money to send it and to get a new one

Since I don't make a single euro out of Vienna tell me: where do the benefits of the dongle lie?

So, if what you say might be (partially) true for professionals, that is far from truth for a large number of people. Given the fact that we understand that people at Vienna have to protect their work too, I think that what most of the users on this forum are asking is to be given a chance to choose at least with a system like Waves. Users are making a step torward the needs of the company: we will still have a USB port busy, we will buy the dongle and have to use it each time. Now that you have launched SE you cannot only think in terms of professionals. Please try to make a step torward these requests.

All the best,

Cesare

Cesare, the discussion is fruitless.

If you follow your argument stringently, you could also ask "Why do I have to buy a computer", "Why do I have to buy monitors", "Why do I have to buy a keyboard", etc. just for making music. Regarding your argument "I need to remember to bring it with me" ... a drummer has to remember to bring his sticks, too.

Even if you don't make a single Euro by making music, you (hopefully) gain something from doing so - joy, entertainment, artistic skills, whatever. For comparison: If you go for a holiday on a cruise ship, you will have to pay for it even if you don't earn any money from it. I bet that you don't want to pay the double amount of money just because the crew is too lazy to deny entry for stowaways who try to get in through the backdoor.

Apart from that: Please understand that companies like VSL have a potential user base that is only a fraction of the big players like Microsoft, Apple and the like. While it is possible for us to scale our products according to the different needs of our customers, it is still the same underlying technology they are founded upon, because the development costs for "another" code base would make the smaller products as expensive as the professional ones. See it as your benefit that you are able to get the same quality product (with reduced content) for considerably less money than the pros. You have to accept that you will get professional copy protection, too.

Dear Dietz,

Thanks again for the reply.

This discussion doesn't appear to be fruitless at all: Very nice information came out of these posts and I really thank people for sharing it! First of all we read that solutions ARE possible and have already been implemented by other companies. Second, it appears that the information concerning the dongle is indeed a bit concealed and does surprise many people. I still wonder why there is no red label on the Vienna key package warning the user of the limitation of the dongle that I've mentioned above, allowing the user to make the decision of returning the purchase before starting to use the software.

Whether it is convenient for Vienna to create SE I cannot possibly know and is not to up me to evaluate. Once again, nobody here has asked Vienna not to protect its interests by completely removing the software protection. But simply to think of and implement solutions to what is a considerable problem for many of its users.

Best,

Cesare

 Only just noticed this thread, and have to say I'm now a little concerned. I really don't mind dongles - the fact that you just plug them in and go is great. If every bit of software I own took the NI approach I would spend many more hours every time I rebuild my system.

But the notion that licenses are synonymous with the dongle I find disturbing. I'm not an expert, but I'm fairly positive that I wouldn't be able to find an insurance firm who will insure me for the theft of licenses. Any insurance firm with any sense will insist that a license, as something intangible, cannot be stolen, and should be re-supplied by the original issuer. So by taking the stance that they won't issue replacement licenses Vienna are asking us to invest in something that is completely uninsurable.

It also doesn't tally with the restritions placed on us as users. Under British law I'm fairly sure I'm entitled to transfer ownership of any physical item I own to another individual. If the licenses become synonymous with the dongle then I'm afraid there is nothing to stop me selling those licenses. If, on the other hand, the licenses remain untransferable, as Vienna would like to insist, then they are not synonymous with the dongle - they can no more be stolen than they can be sold. In which case, in the event of theft, responsibility to replace the physical dongle would fall to me, but the licenses are not gone, and Vienna should be responsible for restoring them.

Apologies if I missed somewhere in the thread, where this initial concern was resolved, but seriously guys, you can't have it both ways. Please sort your act out.

Dear Cesare,

Just as a sidenote: I'm amazed by your patience and ability to lead a potentially controversial discussion in a professional and respecting way like you've shown us in this thread; honoring the views of VSL and its Userbase.

My situation (nothing special but still worth mentioning):

Like you I absolutely DO understand VSLs PoV. Unfortunately the more my job and studies require a mobile workstation (nowadays working most of the time abroad), the more I'm forced to move away from VSL's recent products - which - to be honest - hurts pretty much if one considers the great sound quality of their strings products (I love the classic Strings package) and that I would like to support my home countries' sampling company.

The reasons are obvious why I don't dare to take the key with me - once I almost would have lost it -  well, I learned my lesson and have let it reside in my main computer since then. I'm just too afraid to lose it despite me barely being able to use it at home.

Luckily I'm also an owner of the original First Edition so that I can make use of the basic articulations in Logic on my MacBook Pro (but no performances); at least that helps to a certain degree. In fact I would have liked to take advantage of the students discounts this year again - buying the Solo Strings Bundle and by any chance Woodwinds I. After careful deliberation I came to the conclusion not to take the plunge because of not being able to use it when I'm mobile (it's just too risky).

Maybe one day I'll consider an insurance for the key (which probably would be too expensive anyway) but until then - who knows - maybe then VSL has put enough pressure on Steinberg (I think now it's Steinberg who are in charge of Synchrosoft Copy Protection) so that they could offer us a system that works Waves TLC alike.

Just my two cents.

All the best,

Hans-Peter

@Pingu said:

But the notion that licenses are synonymous with the dongle I find disturbing. I'm not an expert, but I'm fairly positive that I wouldn't be able to find an insurance firm who will insure me for the theft of licenses. Any insurance firm with any sense will insist that a license, as something intangible, cannot be stolen, and should be re-supplied by the original issuer. So by taking the stance that they won't issue replacement licenses Vienna are asking us to invest in something that is completely uninsurable.

I have my studio equipment insured in the UK, including dongles and the licences held on them (via a specialist music equipment insurance company). They will also cover the equipment out of the studio environment upon request. You just need to do a bit of Googling.

M