Ok, DG please, stop making absurd comparisons. The VSL license is neither a driving license nor a fridge. We know exactly what we mean with it and so do you DG. Why don't you instead tell us how much it costs Vienna to generate licenses, this would be a useful information to think about feasibility of systems such as the Waves TLC (does anyone know how much it costs?). You seem to be very well informed and somehow half way between a user and a Vienna emplyee.

Pingu and Delavagus, why don't we start acting concretely to inform people? Originally I had thought of the www.viennausers.com website. But that takes way too much time to create and would take even longer to rank decently on google. I keep the domain just in case this thread gets deleted in which case I'd move it there.

Why don't we instead make a clear compact list of the things that costumers are not informed about and post it as reviews to VSL in let's say 4 websites each? A review on Amazon or any of the main resellers reaches thousands of people, and I always read them before buying a product. We would then reach many more people and be much more effective without wasting too much time. We are actual costumers and we write about true stuff and reviews really help costumers to decide. I really wished I were informed at the time I purchased Vienna, I'm not a pro and didn't want to get stuck into this absurd dongle problems.

@clruwe said:

I agree, but if it's not VSL or EWQL then what? I've done a lot of research and I cannot find any non-dongle alternatives... We just need to convince VSL to change.

There are a few Kontakt libraries out there that I think seem decent that don't use dongles (no personal experience), but I don't think it's fair to bring competitors' products up on this forum.  I do, however, still believe that VSL's libraries sound better and you can't really beat VI Pro as a sample player (though Kontakt is a close second - obviously this is my opinion), but the monetary risk is just too great for me.

They did reply to my email asking about selling my licenses and they do let you. 

• The fees will cost me about US $200 though - 10% of retail or US $70 (50 Euro?) minimum per license - plus the loss on retail pricing I would have to take to make my offer more attractive than buying direct / retail.  I am estimating an overall ~30% loss.
• The licenses must be sent to the "new owner" already on a key
• Full licenses cannot be split into Standard / Extended.  Lastly, you cannot offer your licenses / DVDs / etc on auction sites (such as eBay) - they must be sold privately.

I must say, I was rather surpised they let sell you licenses, but the fees are steep.

On the flip side, I do have a few EWQL licenses as well (these absolutely cannot be transferred).  I don't use them because the PLAY engine is so weak and v 3.x is a nasty joke of a bugfest that is hit or miss as to which machine it will work on.  What a miserable mistake it was to buy EWQL "stuff".

@Another User said:

Why don't you instead tell us how much it costs Vienna to generate licenses, this would be a useful information to think about feasibility of systems such as the Waves TLC (does anyone know how much it costs?). You seem to be very well informed and somehow half way between a user and a Vienna employee.

.

How would I know how much it costs to generate licences? Of course I'm well informed. I'm a professional, and do my research before buying any equipment or software. That doesn't make me an employee; just someone with a bit of experience and intelligence. I do spend a lot of time on this forum helping people, unlike some others who seem to join this forum just to complain. However, I do think it's a bit selfish for some new members of the forum (and I'm not talking about you) to expect other members of the forum to rise up and support them, when they've given nothing to the community.

However I certainly wouldn't want VSL to go down the same route as the Waves Extortion Plan. Nether would I want them to go down the route of East West, where you can't sell any of their products, even though they use an iLok.

DG

That's right, I am not a professional and I did not buy a professional product: I bought SE wich was explicitely aimed at non professionals

"It is the ideal, resource-saving companion for orchestral arrangements on the laptop, or for newcomers to the world of Vienna Instruments, offering a useful cross-section of Vienna Symphonic Library’s over one million samples."

I thus do not want to have to deal with the hassle of a pro. I want a product that I can use when I travel (as suggested by the SE description, you should use it on a laptop!), not that I have to keep locked at home. I really don't know where I could have read about the key problems, since it was not written anywhere (OK, now they are, since this thread was created).

Anyone is welcome to join this discussion, independently to how much he/she "contributed" on this forum. We are not building an open-source project, here we are discussing about the money we earned.

One more thing: if I loose my driving license I go to the police station certify the loss and get a new one, I'm not asked to redo the test.

@DG said:

It's hardly absurd. A licence is a licence, but for some reason you seem to think that you are entitled to sell a VSL licence, whereas you would never think of selling a driving licence. Or a TV licence for that matter

That's exactly my point. Not only would you not think of selling your driving or tv license, but you literally can't, since they are completely intangible. The piece of plastic that represents premission for me to drive is only a representation. If I lose it the DLV will supply another copy - they will charge an admin fee, but they don't tell me that my permission to drive is gone, and claim that I have to start all over again.

According to VSL the dongle is not just a representation of your license, but actually is the license. It's no longer an intangible thing, represented by an object, but actually is the object. And, as I said before, I'm entitled to sell any physical item that I own. So they've put themselves on very dodgy ground.

@cesare.magri said:

 

One more thing: if I loose my driving license I go to the police station certify the loss and get a new one, I'm not asked to redo the test.

And the new licence is free? It certainly isn't in the UK.

DG

@DG said:

It's hardly absurd. A licence is a licence, but for some reason you seem to think that you are entitled to sell a VSL licence, whereas you would never think of selling a driving licence. Or a TV licence for that matter

That's exactly my point. Not only would you not think of selling your driving or tv license, but you literally can't, since they are completely intangible. The piece of plastic that represents premission for me to drive is only a representation. If I lose it the DLV will supply another copy - they will charge an admin fee, but they don't tell me that my permission to drive is gone, and claim that I have to start all over again.

According to VSL the dongle is not just a representation of your license, but actually is the license. It's no longer an intangible thing, represented by an object, but actually is the object. And, as I said before, I'm entitled to sell any physical item that I own. So they've put themselves on very dodgy ground.

 And this is why I think that it is fair that VSL allows you to sell your licence, even though other companies, that also use dongles for their software, may not. However, I don't think that VSL should be out of pocket, if Steinberg charges an admin fee.

Now as to how much the fee should be; I'm certainly more in your camp on that one. However, I have no idea how much Steiny charges, or how much admin is caused on the VSL side, so I can't really speculate as to whether or not it is fair.

I also think that VSL should have some special sort of insurance that they can recommend to their users, for those people who for some reason are unable to sort it out themselves. That would help, I think.

DG

Anyway, comparing the VSL license to anything else is simply pure speculation. Let's not get lost on fruitless things, and let's instead focus on concrete things: the only thing that matters is the fact that Vienna imposes to costumers strict limitations without informing them at the time of buying. The only thing that matters now is informing other people before they purchase something they were not given enough information about.

Thus, Pingu and Delavagus, what do you think of the review proposal? Reviews were made for this, to help possible buyers make infomed decisions. We could chose the 12 main resellers (4 for each of us), prepare a compact but clear description of the problems and post it. It will take us a few minutes each. Doing it together will make it look as a more reliable complain than just one "angry" reviewer writing around. I think it can really make the difference saving people from making an uninformed choice on how to spend one or two months wages.

@DG said:

However, I don't think that VSL should be out of pocket, if Steinberg charges an admin fee.

No I wouldn't want to see VSL out of pocket either. For all that I think their business practise is unethical (and more because they simply haven't thought it through, rather than because they set out to be unethical) I still want to see them succeed, since their products are great. On the other hand, I don't think Steinberg should have any say here either, and there should be no transfer fee at all.

If my permission to use the samples is intangible, and lives somewhere in the ether, then I would fully understand, since I would need Steinberg / VSL to transfer records of who they regard as having that permission. But when it becomes a thing there is no longer any need. There are a finite number of dongles out there, they can only be used in one PC at a time, and it's really none of their business who has them. The policy on theft is a confirmation of this. If my dongle is stolen then the letter of the law (although I realise Vienna have been persuaded to act slightly more reasonably in some cases) is that my license is simply gone. The only logic I can think that Vienna are applying is that there is now a new user, and giving me replacement licenses would mean there are more users out there than there are people who've payed up. So, in effect, they've transferred my license to the thief, merely by dint of him having my dongle. So I'm darned if I can't do the same without having to tell them.

I am writing a short piece for Wikipedia (for the criticism section in the VSL wkipedia page). I'll post it here first for comments and suggestions: it should be well written, correct and fair.

Cesare

@cesare.magri said:

I want a product that I can use when I travel (as suggested by the SE description, you should use it on a laptop!), not that I have to keep locked at home.

not sure if i understand your intention - it is exactly the ViennaKey which allows you to take the license with you wherever you travel to and on whatever computer you like to use ist.

@clruwe said:

Yes I see... I should've google it before posting. You can only use one set of licenses per computer i.e. you cannot separate libraries. I understand the issue better now.

not correct in this sense. you can seperate collections (which may consist of a standard and an extended library) to different computers - that's one of the benefits of VE PRO, use strings on one computer and woodwinds on another.

however you cannot *double* a license for a certain collection to use it on 2 computers simultaneously.

@Another User said:

They really need to choose which way they want it - either the license is intangible, and thus untransferrable, (but also unloseable, unstealable, and impossible to damage), or it's a piece of hardware, and can be lost, but I can also sell it.

a license can never be a piece of hardware because it is immaterial by design.

a not transferrable license does not imply a piece of hardware would be unloseable or unstealable.

No no, VSL was extremely clear on this when I asked them by email: the dongle IS the license and when you loose it you lose the license (I still have the email in which they write it). Dot.

@Cyril said:

VSL have to find a solution so that they can de-activate a stolen USB key.

that's agreat idea ... we put a GPS receiver, a battery and a GSM module onto every ViennaKey to allow execution of what you're asking for ... unfortuantely the ViennaKey would cost some 100 euro then, but who cares ...

(who' finding sarcasm here is entitled to keep it)

@Another User said:

The most valuable part of our products is the license which is stored on the key.

and as far as i can see a very special and most valuable solution has been the result in your case.

if you're indeed as unhappy as im reading out of your posts i'll suggest our sales team to refuse such concessions in the future for similar cases.

Come on, an optional (only for those who want it) call home system for those who would be interested in the service would be extremely easy to implement. There is simply no will to do it.

@cm said:

i would really ask you to cite correctly and not throwing fog

Here I cite "correctly":

"Generally, you didn't purchase the software or the samples itself, but the license (!) to use the software and the samples in your projects. This license is stored on your key, and by loosing the key, you also lost the license to use the product."

sent to me by Stefan Steinbauer on May 27th 2010

Dear people at Vienna,

First of all, everyone on this forum and also those reading and contributing to this (a bit angry) thread, thinks that you do a damn good job and produce good products. Honestly, the email I quoted in my previous post makes me smile a bit, in the sense that it shows how hard it is for you too to deal with this mess of the key/license/authorization/whatever without ending up in a some contraddiction.

Nobody here thinks you are bad or evil, nobody wants to see you go banckrupt and thus everyone understands your need to protect your products. However, since the introduction of the SE your company has been faced with a problem that currently you are simply refusing to acknowledge. Namely, that while your copy protection scheme worked and works perfectly fine for professionals, with SE you have started to target a new type of costumer, the non-professionals, for whom your copy protection systems is simply too restrictive and for whom being denied some important information (such as how much one has to pay for lost keys etc) makes a big difference. Obviously you are aware of this, otherwise this information would be printed clearly on your website.

As I said before, we all understand your need to protect your work. On the other hand you need to understand our concerns. We, non professionals, don't have music studio with relative insurances, we use your software with cheap laptops with few USB ports, maybe on a train or plane, maybe in the bits of free time, often tired after having worked long hours at our non-musical jobs. This type of messed-up usage of the key and software drastically increases the chanses of loosing, being stole or breaking a key, compared to a professional. On the other hand we have spent several months wages on your product, and did this simply for passion, we won't make money out of this software, it is not an investment. You have to understand that it is unthinkable for us that such a huge amount of money is linked in such a fragile way to a piece of plastic. And it makes us angry not to have been told clearly at the beginning all the infos regarding the dongle.

We are asking for feasible and reasonable solutions, such as the optional (so that pros don't have to deal with it) temporary license system. We are also saying that we are willing to (reasonalby) pay for it, on top of what we have already paid. Why don't you at least reply us telling us WHY you won't implement it?

Finally, why don't you write a 100% clear and open policy regarding lost keys etc? so that everyone knows what he/she should expect and can easily refer to it? Maybe you will loose a couple of costumers on the short time, but, honestly, it will make you look 10 times more reliable, professional and fair, and you will gain the trust of your current costumers. There are other cool products of yours that I'd like to buy, but I won't, simply because I don't want to run the risk of loosing everything together with a blue USB stick.

With kind regards,

Cesare

@Pingu said:

Certainly in the UK I am entitled to sell

your dongle holds the liceneses, you can sell your dongle but you cannot sell licenses iisued to you as person. at least not without permission of the licensor.

See I still think you're trying to have the best of both worlds here, and are just playing with words to try and make something true that isn't. Trying to distinguish between the dongle being the license and holding the license is specious at best. By definition 'license' simply means 'permission' and is completely immaterial, as you've said later in your post. By saying that that permission lives in a specific place you've still made it into an object, even if it's just the code on the dongle.

[quote=cm]

a license can never be a piece of hardware because it is immaterial by design.

a not transferrable license does not imply a piece of hardware would be unloseable or unstealable

Again your logic is very flawed. You say the license cannot be a piece of hardware, by definition (and I completely agree). In that case, although the hardware can be stolen the license can't. If it can be stolen, then it is the hardware.

As I see it this is a very simple issue. I buy permission to use your samples. You have a record that I have that permission, and, by definition, that permission is immaterial / intangible. So in the event of theft, fire, etc, that permission can't have been lost. I fully understand the costs associated with generating the licenses, which I also fully agree the user should pay, but to simply say that permission to use the samples was lost with the dongle is ridiuclous. Either a license is immaterial or it's not.

More to the point, the main purpose of this thread was to point out that Vienna's stand has simly never been spelled out, so customers are left with whatever decision you make on the spur of the moment, and some of those decisions send out the wrong message. For instance, the only reason I can think of for not restoring licenses when a user reports their dongle stolen, is that you simply don't trust them. And I can at least partly understand this viewpoint, because I'm sure there are some customers who would simply report their dongles stolen in order to gain second licenses (although really that's one of the downsides of dongles that Vienna have laid themselves open to by choosing a dongle solution, and shouldn't be our problem). But I can only understand it if you apply it consistently. If you say to a customer whose dongle has been stolen, 'We'll restore your licenses, but only if you buy more of our software,' I'm not sure what the message is anymore. It sounds like 'We don't trust you, and believe you are trying to get duplicate licenses, but we're happy if we get some money,' or, 'We believe your dongle is almost certainly stolen as you've said, but we're going to take the opportunity to take more money.'

Probably this isn't how you want to come across, but there has never been any clear explanation of why you make these slightly random compromise deals, so we're left only with the impression it leaves.