I am using SIR1, but I belive the quality of the impulse file is more important than the actual impulse reverb make. Latency is another thing...
Imagine you record a voice close and distant. Will they sound the same if the room is dry? I don't think so. The close voice will have more brightness and sound less damped, and have a different dynamics. Even if you put reverb on the close miked voice, pre or post fader, you still can tell it is close voice with reverb on it. I experience something similiar with VSL. Some instrument too closed miked to get depth between instrument groups.
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Most orchestral recordings are actually a mixture of a main microphone system and spot microphones for added definition. This is exactly what you would achieve by using the room signal created by the MIR engine (i.e the main system) with the direct signals mixed in. Actually this concept was part of the Vienna Symphonic Library's samples from the very beginning.
Apart from that, Vienna MIR offers a dedicated "distant" Character Preset for most Vienna Instruments to give you even more options on the direct signal itself.
HTH,
/Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library -
How close are the Vienna instruments typically mic'd?
The issue of making a drier recording more wet isn't nearly as big a hurdle as making something mic'd close sound like its mic'd from a distance.
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This depends. Micheal Hula, our musical director, would have all the details (which he woudn't share anyway ;-) ...), but I would say between 1 or 2 m for certain solo instruments up to 5 m and more in case of ensembles (which isn't even close to "close", in my book).
/Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library -
This is exactly what you would achieve by using the room signal created by the MIR engine (i.e the main system) with the direct signals mixed in.
And in that case classical recordings would be made that way - why bother setting up the extra microphones then?
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5m seems like it could be reasonable for a group, but one meter for a solo instrument seems way too close for an orchestral sound.
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@Roger Noren said:
And in that case classical recordings would be made that way - why bother setting up the extra microphones then?I don't understand this question, sorry.
What you wrote seems like a contradiction to me. First you say (which I agree upon) that classical recordings are made with balancing close and distant miking, and then you say a convolution reverb can control the depth placement just as good. Then I wonder why classical recordings are not made that way since it seems much easier. My point is that close and distant miking gives different characteristics, which not entirely could be simulated by the CR. In my opinion, the best way to simulate something would be to do it as close to the real thing as possible. I understand that users don't want to have any reverb sometimes, so the close and distant miking should be done in a fairly dry room. Then, by balancing these two, adding the reverb wanted, it should give a convincing result. The demos I've heard from VSL are very impressing in every aspect expect for the depth definition.
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@mike connelly said:
5m seems like it could be reasonable for a group, but one meter for a solo instrument seems way too close for an orchestral sound.
When you are recording real instruments in an orchestral setting it would be unlikely you'd go further away than 1m with the "spot" mic for your solo instrument. Apart from around this position sounding just fine (along with mixed in pick-up of the room and other orchestra mics) any further and the mic would tend to pick up additional instruments in preference to your solo.
Julian
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@julian said:
When you are recording real instruments in an orchestral setting it would be unlikely you'd go further away than 1m with the "spot" mic for your solo instrument. Apart from around this position sounding just fine (along with mixed in pick-up of the room and other orchestra mics) any further and the mic would tend to pick up additional instruments in preference to your solo.Julian
I'd agree that 1m may be fine for a spot mic, but in that situation it is also blended with a more distant mic. In general, orchestral recordings sound most natural using mostly the main mics that capture the entire ensemble, and a small amount of spot mics (when they are needed).
I'm talking about recording with only one mic and having it at 1m, which seems to be the case with some VSL solo instruments (correct me if I misunderstood).
If you really wanted to recreate that means of recording a full orchestra, it seems like the best way to do it would be to use multiple mics (more distant mics and closer "spot mics") and let the user mix between the two. The difference in sound between close and distant micing is more than just verb and I doubt it can really be simulated well.
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So, does MIR actually help improve the actual timbre of the currently available VSL strings libraries ? (i.e. offer rich, natural, and warm strings timbre) ? I personally don't think so.
Yes, MIR can improve the perceived spacial elements around the samples, but since the samples themselves do NOT have that rich, warm timbre I'm expecting to hear, I very much doubt any type of spacial treatment will solve this problem. Sadly, this is very much the case with all of the VSL strings audio demos I hear. They lack that natural, warm, and pleasing strings timbre that my ears have a big craving for.
If VSL thinks that MIR is the ultimate solution to improve the current VSL strings, I would love to hear a few demos that prove that this is actually possible. So far I'm NOT convinced.
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@Roger Noren said:
And in that case classical recordings would be made that way - why bother setting up the extra microphones then?I don't understand this question, sorry.
What you wrote seems like a contradiction to me. First you say (which I agree upon) that classical recordings are made with balancing close and distant miking, and then you say a convolution reverb can control the depth placement just as good. Then I wonder why classical recordings are not made that way since it seems much easier. My point is that close and distant miking gives different characteristics, which not entirely could be simulated by the CR. In my opinion, the best way to simulate something would be to do it as close to the real thing as possible. I understand that users don't want to have any reverb sometimes, so the close and distant miking should be done in a fairly dry room. Then, by balancing these two, adding the reverb wanted, it should give a convincing result. The demos I've heard from VSL are very impressing in every aspect expect for the depth definition.You didn't read my previous post properly (or it's a language thing - English isn't my mother tongue, as you may have guessed 😊 ...)
What the main microphone in an orchestral recording picks up is 90 or more percent room reflections. These reflections are coming from sources which are "dry" by definition (as an instrument isn't a room in our sense of the word - well, maybe with the exception of an organ).
This room signal is what MIR is all about. Mix in the dry signal to the "proper" amount - which is always more a question of aesthetics than pure science, to my experience - and you are right there. The feeling for "distance" is built-in.
Of course we are in the virtual world, so we have to deal with side-effects that wouldn't occur in reality, so all we can do is to betray the human ear as skillfully as pissible. 😊 MIR is still brandnew, so we yet have to gain mastership.
Kind regards,
/Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library -
@muziksculp said:
So, does MIR actually help improve the actual timbre of the currently available VSL strings libraries ? (i.e. offer rich, natural, and warm strings timbre) ? I personally don't think so.
If VSL thinks that MIR is the ultimate solution to improve the current VSL strings, I would love to hear a few demos that prove that this is actually possible. So far I'm NOT convinced.
A friend of mine who's a professional classical player came to my home a week ago and told me that VSL+MIR is the most convincing orchestra mock-up tool till now.
In a world where somebody says that old LP are better than 24bit/98K digital recording, that is a big success for the Vienna Team.
If you don't like it, you may go for the real thing and nobody will argue with you. I think that every man prefer a beatiful girl instead of a video of her[8-|], even if is a 3D movie.
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A friend of mine who's a professional classical player came to my home a week ago and told me that VSL+MIR is the most convincing orchestra mock-up tool till now.
In a world where somebody says that old LP are better than 24bit/98K digital recording, that is a big success for the Vienna Team.
Thanks for the feedback.
Hearing is believing ! That's the only way to prove that VSL + MIR is the ultimate sounding virtual orchestra solution on the market.
If (VSL + MIR) can offer the type of string sounds I'm eager to hear, I would buy it instantly. The real issue is that non of the audio demos have been able to deliver that rich, and warm, strings timbre I'm seeking. I'm also aware that there is no way we are going to be able to compete with real string players when using samples, but the closer we get to that animated, lively, warm, singing, and rich timbre sound, the more convinced I will be that VSL + MIR can do the job.
IMHO, VSL woodwinds, and brass, timbres, are much better sounding than VSL's strings timbre, so I'm hoping that VSL might have some future plans, to offer a line of new ' improved ' Strings libraries (2nd generation VSL strings ) one of these days. So far there is no sign of this happening, but who knows, they might decide to do so one of these days. On the other hand, if I do finally hear that jaw dropping VSL strings audio demo, I will put this argument to rest.
Cheers.
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I agree with that. If VSL/MIR are really doing the most convincing mockups possible right now, it's not coming across in the demos I have heard.
And from what I've heard I'd also agree that the brass and wind instruments seem more convincing than the strings.
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I think that every man prefer a beatiful girl instead of a video of her , even if is a 3D movie.
For a moment there I thought I read "I think that every man prefers a beautiful girl instead of the wife he got"...
If you want to be happy for the rest of your life
Never make a pretty woman your wife!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2MM1BosdmYhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2MM1BosdmY
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I've used VSL Strings for almost 6 years now, up until the point I got LA Scoring Strings. Over the last few projects I found myself replacing my VSL strings completely, with the exception of sordinos and there legato articulation. With that said, VSL Strings did there job exceptionally over the years, but until they offer proper divisi options I'll be with LASS. Am alone on this one? Any LASS users on here?
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@Sami said:
I've used VSL Strings for almost 6 years now, up until the point I got LA Scoring Strings. Over the last few projects I found myself replacing my VSL strings completely, with the exception of sordinos and there legato articulation. With that said, VSL Strings did there job exceptionally over the years, but until they offer proper divisi options I'll be with LASS. Am alone on this one? Any LASS users on here?I have actually considered buying them. Do you find them easy to work with? How do you find the sound quality of them compared to your current libraries?
