Vienna Symphonic Library Forum
Forum Statistics

184,613 users have contributed to 42,366 threads and 255,351 posts.

In the past 24 hours, we have 1 new thread(s), 7 new post(s) and 72 new user(s).

  • Orchestral templates.

    I'm building my orchestral template but i can not load all instruments of the orchestra because i don't have enough ram. I still want to build one with the basics or the must have to start with.  I can load quit a few. Most of it actually so don't be shy. So what would you say are the must have for classical music and opera? Not film.  By sections. WW, Brass, Strings and percs.  You may also include solo instruments or chamber instruments like chamber strings  you like to layer on top of sections in that list.

    Thanks.


  • last edited
    last edited

    Hi Anonymous Joe

    I don't know whether you have a lot of RAM-space or not (only "not enough"). My experience is: Do not prepare too big sized "starting presets". A very small preset for each instrument could be: staccato-, sustain-, and the legato- articulation. If you still don't have enough RAM then remove the legato articulation. Further you can set several other things in the mean time: Midi -controller for On/Off "X-Fade", Midi - controller for X-Fade itself, ...

    All these small things take a lot of time when you have to set them with each session start. If you would do this within a VE "Strings", a VE "Woodwinds", a VE "Brass" ... incl. the balances etc. then you would be very fast prepared for a common start.

    Here you will find some info about the idea of basic presets

    All the best

    Beat


    - Tips & Tricks while using Samples of VSL.. see at: https://www.beat-kaufmann.com/vitutorials/ - Tutorial "Mixing an Orchestra": https://www.beat-kaufmann.com/mixing-an-orchestra/
  • Thanks, Beat. I'll be sure to visit your website.


    But i guess my question wasn't clear enough so I'll ask differently. What are instrument of the orchestra that get rarely used among brass instruments and WW. Forget strings as all 4 sections  get used obviously.


    I'm talking about Instruments from the pro edition and the horizon series. Is, for example, the Cimmbaso an instrument that you hear often or rarely?

    Cheers.


  • Hi AJ

    I can't answer with any great authority but I think you'll find that the Standard SE contains the most commonly used instruments, the SE Extended adding a few that are not always included in the average orchestral set-up and the big collections throwing in a few rarities.

    WW 2, Special WW, Brass 2 and Special Brass instruments you're more likely to find in large scale works or where a player doubles on a rarer instrument of the particular family when required.

    As for the Cimbasso - how many strings does it have?

    HTH

    Colin


  • last edited
    last edited

    Hi Colin,

    I think what you"re saying makes a lot of sense. SE or the old Opus 1 package probably contain the most commonly used instruments. Why did't i think of that?

    @ct1961 said:

    As for the Cimbasso - how many strings does it have?

    Cimbasso is a brass instrument. [;)]

    Thanks.


  • last edited
    last edited

    @ct1961 said:

    As for the Cimbasso - how many strings does it have?

    Cimbasso is a brass instrument.

    Thanks.

    ...you obviously don't know how many strings it has either.[8-|]

    Colin


  • last edited
    last edited

    @ct1961 said:

    As for the Cimbasso - how many strings does it have?

    Cimbasso is a brass instrument.

    Thanks.

    ...you obviously don't know how many strings it has either.

    Colin

    Haha! I guess not![:)]


  •  A standard orchestration is very reasonable to load for RAM.   it would normally consist of:

    Flute (s)

    Oboe

    Clarinet

    Bassoon

    Trumpet

    Horn

    Trombone

    Tuba

    Timpani

    Percussion

    Harp

    Violins 1

    Violins 2

    Violas

    Cellos

    Basses

    On the winds, you would have more than one part each depending on the  size of the ensemble, but every orchestra that plays the standard concert repertoire has to have something like this.  Beat is right about creating for a template the pan and level settings and basic articulations only , which might be Legato-sustain-detache-staccato and maybe tremolo in strings and trills in woodwinds.


  • That's great.

    But i want to make sure i understand what you're saying. You say trumpet as in 1 trumpet? Same for trombone and horn?  No ensemble? I was under the impression orchestras had trumpet ensembles, horn ensembles, and maybe trombone ensemble too. I guess I'm a little surprise.  Or maybe that a very basic setup? I'm not doubting you i just need to clarify this.

    This is going to be very helpful.

    Thanks a lot.


  •  No, I just meant that some number of trumpets would be used and it varies.  But the normal numbers (which of course will often vary depending on the piece ) will be:

    2 Flutes

    2 Oboes

    2 Clarinets

    2 Bassoon

    2 or 3 Trumpets

    2 0r 4 Horns

    2 Tenor Trombones (plus possibly Bass Trombone)

     Tuba or not tuba  (Hamlet said that didn't he?)

    Timp/Perc

    Harp

    Violins 1

    Violins 2

    Violas

    Cellos

    Basses

    You would see these numbers in for example a Brahms symphony.  A little before that, in the Classical era there were usually just pairs of winds, with no clarinets, trombones or tuba until Beethoven started using clarinets and trombones.  The tuba came in still later.  So the normal orchestra seen today is the Romantic era orchestra, which will often have  trios of winds, with the following:

    Piccolo

    2 Flutes

    2 Clarinets

    Bass Clarinet

    2 Oboes

    English Horn

    2 Bassoons

    Contrabassoon

    and the larger brass section.  The strings were expanded in numbers of players to balance the greater number of winds and percussion.  It was Wagner, Richard Strauss and Mahler who really expanded the orchestra with more brass (such as the Wagner tubas which are almost never used today except for playing Wagner's operas) four each of the woodwinds sometimes and even bigger brass sections.  People often lump Bruckner together with Mahler, but his orchestration was very different in that he used normal sized Brahms-style orchestra except for adding some Wagner tubas in the 7th and 9th symphonies.  


  • Wonderful. That's just what a wanted to know.

    Thank you very much, William.


  • William

    What is the least expensive way to purchase the (second chairs) of the 2-2-2-2 WW and Brass groups to complete a basic orchestral set of instruments with minimum (level one) articulations for the amateur?  I have SE and APP.

    tony h 


  • last edited
    last edited

    @TonyHartmann said:

    What is the least expensive way to purchase the (second chairs) of the 2-2-2-2 WW and Brass groups to complete a basic orchestral set of instruments with minimum (level one) articulations for the amateur?  I have SE and APP.

    tony h 

    In your shoes I wouldn't spend money buying the second chairs of anything. There are far more important things to spend your money on. I have most of the orchestral Collections of VSL, and I can't remember the last time I used the second chair of anything. I suppose that it could be nice when you have a little contrapuntal duet with the 1st and 2nd bassoon, but even that's a stretch.

    DG


  • DG,Thanks for the input.  

    How do you handle the second parts when splitting the original  into two parts?  For example, I have a clainet part 1 and clarinet part 2, each on their own track and am now ready to go from midi to audio. Do I record part 1 with my single clarinet, then change to track 2 and use the same instrument to record the second part? Live they would sound different.  In the computer and recording world, they would blend into the orchestral mix unless exposed.

     Beat Kaufmann suggests that the number  of articulations of instruments is at the discretion of the computer composer and that meticulous articulations may be more important in solo,duet, etc. work (as you suggested above).

     Do I understand what you have said to mean that the separation of the same instrument parts is a similar choice?  That if the two clarinets are playing rhythm or harmony parts, the same voice for each is not that critical, but if the two clarinets are "exposed" different instruments may make a difference?  (It is, after all, computer generated music that needs to be made to sound to the composer's, arranger's, orchestrator's desire, with whatever combinations work to achieve the result. 

    Thank you for the response.  I appreciate it. 

    tony h

    track 2


  • last edited
    last edited

    Hello Tony

    About the 2nd chairs:

    It is true that we get similar results with the samples of one instrument for the (a) second clarinet...

    ...specially in case of playing the same or a similar melody and using similar articulation.

    There is a simple trick to get different sounds for the same tones:

    Transpose the midi signal -1 half tone and compensate this half tone on the VI audio side +1half tone (with the pitch bend function).

    Result: Same a' = an other sample (sound) even if you use the same articulation. ... = Second Chairs for free [H].

    For a third instrument you can transpose the midi signal +1 half tone and reduce it on audio side (-1 haf tone)... = third chairs for free.

    By the way: You can use this trick for playing unisono parts as well.

    (See my midi tutorial Step 6 > 2 Bassoons!)

    Now you have an argument more not to buy "second chairs" [:)]

    Kind Regards

    Beat

    P.S. If you are using SE or LE samples you should transpoe +2 or -2 half tones because we only have "new" samples each 2 half tones.


    - Tips & Tricks while using Samples of VSL.. see at: https://www.beat-kaufmann.com/vitutorials/ - Tutorial "Mixing an Orchestra": https://www.beat-kaufmann.com/mixing-an-orchestra/
  • Yes pitch-shifting is the best way to do it and why VSL did not sample 2nd versions of any of the instruments except for the ones that are variations in playing quality or instrument, like the second flute or lyric piccolo.

    BTW you not only can do this pitch-shifting approach with divisi, but you really should if you want the sound to be accurate.  In other words, simply using a solo clarinet for two clarinets when you only need one line, and then splitting it into two solo instruments when you need two, is a computerized cheat that you can probably get away with sometimes but is not (as you noted) like the real thing.  Also, you might better use the ensemble clarinets, or other ensemble instruments if you are going from 3 part divisi to unisons with 3 players, and have them all on separate tracks so that the stereo image size is adjusted properly for the audible size of three players vs. a solo. 

    I have been a little obsessed with this divisi accuracy subject, as I have been doing some stuff with divis strings and orchestral horns, which very often go from unison to 2 notes to 4 notes.  This absolutely requires extra steps like the pitch shifting, since there are no 2 player horn samples (and they are not really needed all that much).  

    In strings it is much more complicated, and doing a Debussy piece accurately could easily drive someone over the edge as the numbers of the Appassionata, Orchestral and Chamber ensembles do not necessarily match what you need in divisi.  Though here, you can indeed cheat successfully as going from for example Appassionata strings unison to Orchestral 2 note divisi works very well.  If you have 4 notes, you will certainly need the Chamber strings as the sound begins to be too thick.  If you have even more (as in Debussy's Images) you would need to bring in a combination of Solo and Chamber parts.  I had divisi in one piece I did (Apotheosis) that was 16 note in violas-violins and used only solos panned to approximate the stereo spread of the Appassionata unison violas-violins.