Yes,  I also disagreed on this post, because I feel Guy's demos are equally realistic, but also extremely musical and creative.   i don't think - as this person seems to - that all other demos are non-entities, but feel there are quite are few others that show an  incredible array of technical and composing brilliance.

I don't know if the poster sent the wrong file to VSL, but the more I listen to these 2 symphony movements, the more it sounds like a real recording, you could hear the breathing noises at all the correct places. Air rushing from string players moving at emotional entrances etc. There is also, specific noises that bows make when they bump the music stand etc.  I know all this can be added but....

I know what you mean ... either this guy is very good, or we've been had.  

BTW, on his own site he mentions that he added breathing noises ... and those bows hitting stands sound a lot like creative and judicious use of the VSL col legno samples.

Check out his Beethoven piano concerto here:

http://vienna.cocolog-nifty.com/blog/kansei.html

You'll  hear a quite odd breakdown in the piano part that completely convinces you it's not an acoustic instrument recording.  Other than that, we seem to now be entering the realm of  "maybe it's TOO realistic to be true." 

- Paul

Yes, I know you could add these background noises, it's just that they are all so well synced with the action, I'd say too well synced!

I apologize for starting another topic about this. Administrators can remove that topic if you wish.

If Yoshitan wants to prove that it is all VSL and not part VSL and part live, 

I want him to post one minute of either piece without any added noise/s and absolutely no reverb.

If it is VSL as he is claiming, it will be drier than a fish fart on a sandbar.

Then to further prove it, he can send a small portion of the midi and the instrument file.

Dan 

Thank you Dietz,

I was about to say I was ready to eat my computer piece after piece of hardware if this is a MIDI mockup.

Brilliant interpretation by the way...

Michaël

@Mikhail_2 said:

...

Brilliant interpretation by the way...

Michaël

I agree.  Whoever is performing in those recordings (i.e., whether it's Jay in the Rite or Yoshitan in the Beethoven 3/Mozart 39) he is a masterful musician with deep grasp of phrasing, balance, humor, energy, tone color and timing.  The clarity in the Beethoven 3, for example, is simply stunning. 

Paul

@Mikhail_2 said:

...

Brilliant interpretation by the way...

Michaël

I agree.  Whoever is performing in those recordings (i.e., whether it's Jay in the Rite or Yoshitan in the Beethoven 3/Mozart 39) he is a masterful musician with deep grasp of phrasing, balance, humor, energy, tone color and timing.  The clarity in the Beethoven 3, for example, is simply stunning. 

Paul

Yes of course it's nice, but that wasn't the issue here.....

 I don't "bow down" to this Yoshitan person.  My goal is not mere success in aping real instruments.  I am so tired of this attitude, that to simply copy what instruments do in real life is the ultimate goal with samples.   

I am trying to perform music that cannot or will not otherwise be performed.  That is the great achievement of VSL, to allow composers to realize music THAT WOULD NOT OTHERWISE SEE THE LIGHT OF DAY.  That is a thousand times more significant than mere success in imitation of something that we already have.

I understand what you're saying, but if you change "real instruments" to "other orchestras" in your comment, your point of view starts to sound like one that has been commonly expressed in the orchestra world (by composers and champions of contemporary music, at least). Namely:

"Why should we make more concerts or recordings of pieces that are already played hundreds of times each and every year?"  

That's a good question, but it's independent of the question of digital vs. acoustic instruments.  

Perhaps you'd agree that ANOTHER one of the great achievements of VSL is that it allows unusual and nuanced performances of works we already know (or think we do) that would otherwise never see the light of day.  (There are valid musical reasons why some pieces are played over and over again, and not only economic reasons.)  

The existence of the VSL opens access to musical expression to performers (not just composers) whose goals include producing great music, regardless of whether composer is alive or dead, or the piece is well known or not.  This goal, and the goal of performing music that would not otherwise be performed, co-exist ... and one goal is not 1,000 times more significant just because it happens to be the goal you've chosen.  There's room for both in the world, and there's room to choose where to put your focus.

To make it clear :

I just listened to Mozart's symphony (I couldn't access the Beethoven's piece of music).

I can't believe one second it is a midi mockup. In my opinion, this is a real orchestra without any doubt.

Michaël

 Yes I completely agree with that Paul and don't mean to attack that concept. 

An example of what you are talking about is of course this Rite performance, and why Jay did it.  Because he wanted to "play" this particular piece of music for the artistic interest, because it is great music and he wanted to perform it and did a great performance.  

It is just that at times i get annoyed when the emphasis is completely on whether or not something sounds real, and who cares what the music is.  That is the attitude of many people.  They go ape over something if it is a great fake, and could not care less what music is done with it.  That irritates me as a composer trying to get music heard, not just fake an orchestra.

I see what you're saying, William.  We're on the same page.  It really is annoying when the focus is only on sounding "real."  Even when real might even be worse.  But this concept is especially bizarre to invoke in musical situations.  Musical reality is only in the mind of the hearer.  

I think it's much better to be on to discussions of musicality in addition to all the technical stuff we have to discuss and deal with.  That's one of the great results of Jay's achievement with the Rite.  Each time I listen to it, I learn and think more about Stravinsky's music -- what was he trying to get at?  What other ways COULD we play this piece.  We don't have to worry about violating the expectations of players; we can experiment -- we can play.  A new, freer approach to performing these works is becoming possible due to the existence of the VSL.

If we look at this six-year long VSL experience as the emergence of a new instrument and compare it to what always happens when a new instrument emerges, we can see parallels.  For example, when the piano came on the scene composers wrote for it like a harpsichord.  There were probably lots of heated arguments about whether the worked well as a harpsichord.  Unfortunately, those forums have been deleted, so we'll never know how similar their arguments were to what we're witnessing here. :)

I think we have still not seen what amazing things composers will do with the digital orchestra to branch away from this initial mimetic phase and start composing for the instrument.  In this context, the mimetic activity seems natural and, to me, necessary to ensure that the instruments are "fire tested" with the expressive demands of great music.

As we go forward I can't wait to hear the amazing performance feats from Jay, you, Guy and whomever else might unexpectedly emerge from, oh, I dunno ... some far-off island nation.  

And I also look forward to witnessing the jaw-dropping musical geniuses who pick this stuff up and compose stunning music that perhaps never could be played by a "real" orchestra and which pushes us right out of our mimetic phase and into a new era of digital orchestra expression.

 I like this post, as an inspiring concept. 

However, what is the future of sampling?  What is the ultimate goal?  What happens if you have a perfect sample library?  What will that accomplish?   What is all this leading to?   Will people have in the future some perfect machine that churns out a great performance of a score you feed into it?   Is that a good thing? 

Of course I want that machine right now, but never mind that.

BTW I was listening to the second part of Jay's Rite today, and notice how not only do you stop listening to samples and start listening to music, but it is impossible not to do so.  This completely sucks you into the music, just as a great orchestra does.  I think he is being a bit modest when he says "I can never be as good as Bernstein" or whatever.  Guess what Jay, you already did far more than he did.   To do a performance such as this is far beyond mere conducting.   i remember Thomas Beechum said that conducting an orchestra was so intensely enjoyable because with just a flick of the wrist you could produce a tremendous sound.  of course he did not produce that sound - the players did.  So when a sample performance is done so well by one person (using all those players who made the samples) far more is being accomplished musically than what any condcutor - now or in the past - ever did.

However, what is the future of sampling?  What is the ultimate goal?  What happens if you have a perfect sample library?  What will that accomplish?   What is all this leading to?

These are very good questions, William.

Personally, I feel the ultimate orchestral library is to enable people who cannot afford to hire a real orchestra , to have their compositions that would otherwise never be heard "rendered as though by an orchestra" .

God forbid that it would replace an orchestra, or reduce the viability of real orchestras. For me, it is a miracle that 80 odd people with nothing more than wood & reed & brass & gut can make these awe inspiring sounds. And I feel it would dimish their talents and genius, if midi orchestrations just become something that can be knocked off in a couple of hours by guy with a computer and an expensive library.

In some ways it is heartening that it took Jay so long to do this. It means talent still matters; the library should empower the talent - it should not dimish need for talent.

I hope that good midi orchestrations will help give birth to a new classical repotoire and make real orchestras MORE viable, and re-invirgorate the genre.

Well, sample libraries are never going to put symphony orchestras out of business, as they are always almost out of business.  They were before samples, and they are now.  They are not affected by this use at all, and exist precariously in their own world.  In fact symphony players probably get more jobs by playing samples.  

However, sample libraries and synthesizers have definitely put stage orchestra players and studio musicians out of business. I am one of them.  But obviously they are themselves a form of performance - a very complicated issue.

Your point about the 80 odd people (some of them are VERY odd, I can attest to that)  is sometimes true, but only about a great symphony orchestra.  Despite what everyone thinks,  great orchestras are not common just because there are CDs of them all over the place.  Amateur orchestras are the usual, and it is not a miracle to hear them play - it is often painful and they tend to slaughter your music.  So I agree partly with what you're saying, but not all of it because just getting a live orchestra to play your music is not the holy grail.  It has to be a great live orchestra to be better than samples. 

 "In some ways it is heartening that it took Jay so long to do this. It means talent still matters; the library should empower the talent - it should not dimish need for talent." - drew buchan

Your post had a lot of content, so I also noticed this and think it is a good point.  Everyone looks at sample libraries as a substitute, but there is no substitute for actual talent, which the accuracy and depth of VSL definitely does empower.   if this sound is perfected to the ultimate degree, then you will have every choice that a conductor of the London Symphony or the New York Philharmonic has.  But what will you do with it? An idiotic jingle?  A trite and imitative film score?  Or a great symphony or innovative new work of art?  Unfortunately most people will not do the latter or even want to.

 Contrary to what many people think, I actually DO beleive that at some point samples (or more likely some other form of technology) will be able to sound like the real deal.

The past 10 years have shown quite some improvement, but we still have a loooong way to go. Not only in the quality of the sound, but as importantly in terms of space, room and blending. Right now it is virtually impossible to capture the sound and sparkle of a well recorded orchestra. But I'm convinced we will get there.

Orchestras will still have their place, but more for the incredible joy and experience of watching a symphonic performance.

I agree with that. Maybe MIR will be the first time this is going to be accomplished with samples.   It is the physical sensation that an instrument is actually located in a specific place, almost being able to see it with your eyes closed, that gives that added sense of reality. 

The live orchestra will never be obsolete of course, any more than movies made live theater obsolete.   The whole point of a play is that it is happening LIVE.  And the same applies to an orchestral performance.

However, with recordings, it is a different story.