@lgrohn said:
That's the "piano player" recipe
But doesn't your software always generate the same output from any given image? Isn't that the same as a player piano, except with a more obscure input->output mapping function?
-
William you asked me to contribute to this discussion and I shall from respects to you. As I mentioned to you privately, Your opening of your Symphony is quiet stunning. Only a Seasoned Experienced Composer would even attempt such a modern Progression which has the elements of the Traditional Scoring from Motion Pictures and carried on by pushing the Envelope even further. No one has attempted that type of Phrasing before you. And that is what interests me as a Composer. Fertile new ideas from a Painter or Creator. At a fast pace or up tempo. In Harmony. That is interesting to say the least. And that is what separates the Fertile material from the others. I'm using Machines and Samples to help in from that up beat perspectives. The greatest music we listen to for reference is from those early years when the physical ability is over abundant. And then Comes the studying of Structure and Execution. This is where I try to use the help of Machines. Mathematics... The timing structure...
@William said:
There need to be direct correspondences which are creatively selected as highly detailed parameters - such as a low note for the color red, a high note for the color blue, a short note for a small spikey object, a long note for a long sinuous object - etc.
That's the "piano player" recipe. As far I know it has never worked. Actually not for Xenakis either.
...... Maybe the reason it has never worked is because the piano player didn't program it ! ... And even if one does it still is limited to machine music... Take for example the organ. Today its jam packed with all type of gadgets as in percussions and harmony lines in thirds and fifth's. But no one has implemented the Harmonic minor Scale to use at certain phrases as in the natural minors. Because that is what it would take to correctly use those different color elements with the proper material or articulations. The sharps are bright colors and the Flats are Cooler colors, to properly picture these sounds. ( direct quote from Charles Rosen, Emeritus Professor, Chicago University school of music ) Yes, there is an enormous field of art that one can spend all sort of time to properly accustom to machines. But limited amount of people to Explain or program correctly. Keep up your Good Programing Work, Igrohn. Just out of Curiosity. Since you mentioned the Cliche' bit. What type of music do you listen to ? When you're a way from all this programing. Thats where your mind is. You should program your software to whatever you're interested in. Good music comes in all kinds of styles. You will know if its good. It should give you goose bumps. And our minds are in stages according to where our experience is at any given time. Some get goose bumps with; Tonic - Dominant - Subdominant - dominant - Tonic. Some get Goose bumps with; Tonic - Sub-median - Diminished flattened 7'th - in circular 4th and 5th. Any where one is at on the ladder of Knowledge. Should be the state of mind and understanding for that particular person. To push one into another state, not the proper one for that person, can drive one mad or confused. In the music business, One is warned ! of consequences that can eliminate if trying to promote someone at an advanced stage before his time. Its equivalent to trying to open an updated program in an older version. It cannot be done. but one can open an older program version in a new one anytime one wishes. Thats why a touch of Genius more than often will cause one to be whacky ! By the way Guy Backus's Wacky ducky Music done with VSL at its early stages of conception is the best and first in history of using these samples with an artisic brush. And what one can achieve if a proper piano player would attempt the performance in a modern artistic performing angle. Backus made history with these Samples ! Interesting he named it ducky ....or something Wacky like that. A touch of Genius !
-
I agree with rk about Guy Bacos - he has done some amazing, virtuosic things with samples that most others are simply not attempting. Also, I am curious as to what lgrohn listens to when not programming. Is it anything like synethesia? Or is it more like Led Zeppelin?
PaulR - Art of Fugue is bollocks? I did not realize that. Thanks very much for clearing that up.
-
So if all the metacomposer does is orchestrate/perform (which is essentially the same as selecting instruments/articulations) it is a huge step down from the past.
rather than his having a go at Bach.
But I'm sure he'll be along soon enough to confirm or correct this.
-
What type of music do you listen to ? When you're a way from all this programing. Thats where your mind is.
http://www.synestesia.fi/modern_music.html
PS. Chinese people have downloaded this peace about 40000 times:
http://www.synestesia.fi/2007/12/lilies.mp3
Where there minds might be?
-
What type of music do you listen to ? When you're a way from all this programing. Thats where your mind is.
http://www.synestesia.fi/modern_music.html
PS. Chinese people have downloaded this peace about 40000 times:
http://www.synestesia.fi/2007/12/lilies.mp3
Where there minds might be?
Chainy wants to attack Igran in September ! .............Thats were the minds might be......... Are you sure you don't want to stick to music. And only that. The fun is in Music.
-
So if all the metacomposer does is orchestrate/perform (which is essentially the same as selecting instruments/articulations) it is a huge step down from the past.
rather than his having a go at Bach.
But I'm sure he'll be along soon enough to confirm or correct this.
Yeah - William is a senile old twat!! I've forgotton more about Bach that he's ever known.
Yeah - Tracy Emin - thanks for clearing that up - although have you ever seen Tracy Ullman's unmade bed? It's a mess by all accounts.
Look - seriously. Samples used in computers to generate noise via some sort of half-assed photograph is NOT ART. It's SHEEEEEEEIIIIITTTEE.
-
@lgrohn said:
My software is not using random numbers and the photos used have structure. I guess we are missing the proper word, aleatoric is not right.You're quite right that it isn't random - perhaps a better word would be unpredictable? Rolling dice is unpredictable, but it is also a deterministic process - it's just that we can't measure or control the factors that influence the result to the degree required to influence the result. Hence it appears random but actually isn't - it's just unpredictable.
The problem I have with a user of Synestesia calling themself a composer is that they have little direct control over the end result - it's unpredictable. They can influence it of course, but this leads back to my question about aleatoric music. How much unpredictibility is allowable before a composer ceases to be a composer?
Arguably the composer of the music generated by Synestesia is the program itself, and yet here we hit a snag because the program only does what it is told and by that extension is nothing more than an instrument - an exotic player piano.
So we go beyond the instrument to look at what is on the 'page', who created it and by extension could be the composer? Once again - a problem. If you take pictures you're a photographer. The artistic criteria that you apply to taking pictures have nothing to do with the notes that will be generated when the picture is fed through Synestesia.
Even if someone could learn that a certain picture gives a certain result when fed through the program, and they could thus predict the outcome and create images to that end, does that make them a composer? I suppose in theory that's not much different to imagining music, writing it on paper, and having it performed. But doesn't that remove the need for Synestesia? Why not just write it down or record it? The unpredictabilty factor is surely the sine qua non of the program. So that leads us back to my question about aleatoric music.
This is the crux of the question - is someone, as a user of this software, a composer who uses samples for art?
Sorry for the ramble - like Nick I find this subject interesting!
Regards,
Martin
-
@mosso said:
This is the crux of the question - is someone, as a user of this software, a composer who uses samples for art?Right. I have asked during years many copyright lawyers who is the composer when I generate music or when some other persons generate music using my sw. Or has the person who took the photo anyt rights to the music. I have not got any definite answers.
It is interesting than during these discussions in different Internet forums, in most cases the claim is that I am the composer because I am using some parameters (instruments etc). Now in this thread most writers seem to think that I am not.
My system is still experimental has quite a many parameters that a not usually used (=changed). All parameters are global. Because my sw generates a midi file that could be changed (which I never do), how many changes should I make to validate as a composer?
My own opinion? My sw is the composer. I have only commissioned the pieces from my sw.
PS.
The piece RAIN
http://www.myspace.com/synestesiasoftware
was presented here in a Music Festival a month ago:
http://www.musiikinaika.org/138_4.html
The painting "rain" was shown in front of the audience as a metascore.
I asked the Artistic Director to put Synestesia Software as a composer, but he put my name to the program...
-
Lauri Having been through the mill, Kirstened. And toiled. I think you're very Clever and stumbled into a Kitaro sound of plucking with the pizz strings. Who would ever thunk you'de get those type of Fans. Will you be appearing in tinamens square any time soon ? Wonder what these samples will stumble into tomorrow ? Good luck. And all the best. Don't forget us.
-
As to my best recollections; This is my Feelings towards the artistic vein towards Samples............................ (Pic Flute - Yellow to white) / (Flutes - Light Blue to thallus blue to yellow) / (Oboes - Orange to Green to Dark yellow) / (Clarinets - Blues to Greens to dark yellow) / (Bass Clarinet - Deep Blue to Greens to light blues) / (Bassoons - Black to Purple to Lavender to orange to Blue to Green)............ (Trumpets - light Brass or Red to yellow brass) / (French Horn - Red Brass) / (Trombones - Deep Brass Red to Medium Brass Plum) / (Tuba - Black Brass to plum Brass)................... (Violins - braze to light orange to yellow) / (Viola - Braze to deep orange to yellow) / (Cello - dark Braze to deep orange to yellow) / (Bass - Black to Deep brazin to dark orange)........................... Key of C - White / Key of G - Yellow to orange / Key of D - Greens and Blues / Key of A - Orange and Greens / Key of E - Gold red and Oranges / Key of B - Brown, lavenders and Deep blues / Key of F# - Purple, dark blues / Key of Db - Deep Blue to blues to deep lavender / Key of Ab - Blues to Light Blues to thallus rose / Key of Eb - Blues to greens to light magenta / Key of Bb - Greens to blues / Key of F - Blues to yellows / Key of C - White...........................Angelo : i added the second position on this 5th. Printing. Please let me know if you approve, telepathically & under remote viewing .....Anyone trying to promote my name underconcideration will Be Blocked. In short ; Billy Bob will cut your thing off. Its cheeper than paying thousands a day for Security..................In return as a Complimentary to those who care to study. Link to my Book for a Free Download - About 94 megs : https://www.yousendit.com/download/Q01IbUpjNDJmVFpFQlE9PQ
-
Robert
I am on a top secret capostolic mission in the 11th century...
MMMMCMXCIX
http://www.sendspace.com/file/aykmfb
Sincerely
Rudolph of Hagenwil
Knight of the Order of the Golden Fleece
King of Thurgovia, Neuchâtel. La Chaux-de-Fonds, Alsace
Duke of San Morellino, Montalcino, Sovanna, Monte Argentario and Porto Santo Stefano
Ordre de Saint-Georges
Grand Cross of Chickism
Order of the Moor El-AndalusOrdre de Saint-Andrea
Counter Pope of Avignon et Hobby-Samurai
Archbishop of Newbiechickism
.
-
But who is actually USING these samples for artistic purposes? Like for a CD you could never do without them? Or anything else that is an artistic project (as opposed to a paid-for gig).
I want links!
Here are some uses I know of -
Soenke Schnapel who did the extreme atonal demo from "The Darkness Project" Please write in that link if you are there, Soenke
Robert Kaye with his wonderful solo string music.
My own stuff, which right now is Romantic Symphony (which was recorded with the First Edition but I am working on two other CDS that use Vienna Ensemble)
What else? Aren't there any more people doing this? Please write in your links if there are...
-
My little side-project, "mr. wheet" is done using VSL stuff, and would be quite impossible (at least for me) without it. Mind you, it is all quite "playable" by live musicians, so, in a sense, the samples are still playing a "substitute" role - filling in for the real thing... I've finally finished a full mr. wheet album, which I hope to release somehow, somewhere, sometime soon, but it's not available yet. I also hope to start a second album, before too long, which will be much less "hyperreal" than this one - much less dependent on the limitations (and sounds) of "live" instruments, and thus more "experimental" (though I'm kind of irritated by the use of that word with regard to music).
http://www.myspace.com/mrwheetuk
The last track, "Wake up away", is actually a remix of a friend's tune. It has some VSL stuff, but it's kind of a different deal.
J.