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  4. Composers who use samples for art
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    @AW said:

    Is it Real or is it Memorex ? Remember that Commercial of Ela Fitzgerald. Boy times have changed. A kid nowadays can have the most advanced up to date Digital signal right out of his computer. Music everywhere. hepeee.. Who needs Musicians anymore. My HEADACHE does ! thats who...... I had to tape a Video of me playing my music, just to prove that, what i write is really me....It appears that no one can tell the difference between real people and liars using technology. Is anyone lying in today's culture. Geee I hope we're not sending the wrong signal to the 10 year old kid. I got attacked on Amazon.com with vandalizing ugliness by children and their parents. that i used a casio. Apparently they are intelligent enough to know what a casio is. Sounds like the 10 year old kid is out in public again. Isn't that what the television is for. That 10 year old kid. Gee hope he's doing his homework. Joke ....mom and dad are really worried about his education... Its called I'm gonna take everything you've got little fella. Because I can. I'm bigger than you. Beethoven said Everything he's writing is for posterity. And he had to go to vienna to learn study and mingle among other Musicians. Are we not doing the same here. On the Vienna web sight. Beethoven also said that the modern whole-tone style is like painting with music. Aren't we talking about that in this string. Better than 200 years later. On the Vienna web sight, again. It appears that for every few years, we need to exercise this skill we use. It was passed down on to us. First by the plaidees Greek. in the form of The pathagram scale. In which came down the pike to Italy in the form of Vivaldi and Scarlati. Traveled to Germany in the form of the BACH Family. Which stands as the First Family of music. Gave us the Temperament direct to the keyboard. ( Pathagram Scale ). Went on to the Classical era to Vienna. in which Haydn took charge of and created. Then moved to England along with Handel and the london BACH. As if someone was on their tail directly behind them. And all in all it dealt with the twelve key musical system. the twelve key is also where the watches were created in the same area. As we speak today. but what is this system that deals with twelve increments. I'm told its child's play. Ohh every one knows. You're just a kid. Don't you know ? ah he he he. kids. Ok. Right at that same time at the height of the Enlightenment era and the founding father's of music came the Founding fathers of the Constitution. As if Haydn and Handel and the london BACh had been pushed out of England and sailed to Washington. For something of importance. This is 1776. Gee I wonder what the hell happened at that time ? I wonder if the 10 year old kid did his homework ? Apparently this is all kid stuff. like the twelve grade or something to everyone today. Anyway lets continue, It appears that this two party system was created by educated men with wigs and poetic influence. This two party system deals with the right for the little guy. And it deals with it in a form of 12 increments. We'll keep that part quiet for the sake of the Child. well splitting hair today apparently is something of a phenomenon proportion and money. Just so that both parties are the same as one. And the 12 tone musical system is a joke. And That kids are in charge of. A new word is created to fool us about what is of importance and what is to fool us. So here we are all over again on a Viennese web sight trying to figure out what is this system we are handed down to exercise so that the betterment of mankind is to be and not to go extinct. Do we need to use leashes to control man. As if politicians are strung by as puppets. Are we so uneducatedly vulgar and dishonest that we have to use a leash to control which way to read the word God. As if it has a meaning for all of us spelled backwards. As the world turns, in a direction of parallelism and so does the hand writing taking form. Do we need to stress that their is more to this form of independence than just being an angel. what about the scientific theory. The time in which its based on. I can't find anyone on this planet that knows what it really is. If anyone does know please educate me. Because I've gone out of my way to figure it out on the keyboard. Did you know that the Neapolitan is actually just another inversion of the circular 4th and 5th. the leading pure-tones. If anyone has that written in any of their books, please let me know. As I said, I want to be educated. I'm Booooored !. I have the mental status of that 10 year old boy. I watch a lot of television. I'm trying to spot those hollywood babes with their underwear off night out. If I just stick my head...down there.. Never mind.... Why is everyone afraid of Chopin ?. Is it because he's from a different background ? If the twelve tone musical system is from the keyboard and Chopin is the King of the keyboard. then to say he doesn't exist in my vocabulary is equivalent as saying that Einstein is jewish therefore his work is irrelevant to me and everything around me. Hello ! These people are one of a kind and see no boundaries in science, religion and all the facts that they left us with in declaring what is that we have to keep exercising in order to survive. We certainly aren't getting smarter are we ? Were are The Chopin's, Bach's, Haydn's and the Einstein's today ? In the U.S. This is the first election that has no Southerner in it. Since John Kennedy. With the Exception of Reagan in which he got shot. Nixon who got impeached. Poppa Bush who is a Hybrid. And is running the World Today. Oil.... Ohhh.... Oil..... Ohhh... OIL ! Can we talk about that. The 10 year old kid doesn't need to. I guess someone drives for him everyday. While he has his ipod head phones jamming. Is it Real or is it Memorex ? Its not Rocket Science. We find ourselves back to the original place of the founding father's. Here on this Viennese Forum where it all got started. And to this day, We just have the great works of those who tried to show us how its done. They left their great work behind as proof. Of Something we don't understand. But we can get very Good at it if we just climb in and do it. like they did. Its quiet more complex than just that. Yes Real players are the real thing. But the world we live in is so complex and full of Surprises. These samples used as art is just another way to express this language that we need to express in order to exercise our own existence of survival. The Language is more important than the Sound. At this point in Technology. Is it Real or is it Memorex ? The Language is of more importance. Therefore it Doesn't really matter. They are the Same. Isn't that what Vienna is striving for by the end of the day ? Its up to us arbitrating intelligently so that we can get the most out of both. Not the least. There is were we can say we have a handle and can use both to our advantage. Is it real or is it Memorex ?

    Shall I call the ambulance, the one from the clinic for existential fears?

    Where can I buy such problems some of you carry around? I want some problems too!

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    AW - for Christ Sake use paragraphs.

    I thought that was quite interesting. It's true - you may be clinically insane but I agree with most everything you almost managed to articulate.
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    He's been reading too much Jack Kerouac.
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    @William said:

    He's been reading too much Jack Kerouac.

     

    my impression was more that he studies sociology in the first semester, and will drop out and join the Taliban next spring
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    Angelo I'm Telling Mrs. Clematide you'v been scoring porno flicks.
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    @AW said:

    Angelo I'm Telling Mrs. Clematide you'v been scoring porno flicks.

    Do not do that !!!

    I never did that myself, but delegated it to a secret department called "Sweet Chestnut" in Liguria, an erotic extension of our prod. comp. where panty-flodding music (Höslischwemmer Musik), and other hot bubble-gum gets realized. On our new recording label Panty Floating Musicâ„¢ we will soon release new music well suited for the mating ready male and female, as well giving free tips to the young casanovas on our website.
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    I see you edited and expanded your post.  This could easily become a new embarrassment for VSL - one of many we have plagued them with.  However, I just hope your Ligurian Lasciviousness does not use any VSL samples.

    Except possibly for the Bass Flute.   As anyone knows who possesses that beautiful instrument,  who is inflamed by its sultry, seductive, ravishingly breathy musical liquifactions, it would be possible to score an entire line of adult movies with it, solo.

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    Angelo Who is Freckles ? !!!.....She's been Calling persistently ! ... She said She's looking for Angel who told her he needed her to Artistaclly Sample her Marimba's with his Bass Fluit for an upcoming feature.... I want you to go by the Super Market and pick up the Largest cast iron frying pan and come home at once !!! Angel !
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     Marimbas with Bass Flute - brilliant!

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    @Mrs. Clematide said:

    Angelo Who is Freckles ? !!!.....She's been Calling persistently ! ... She said She's looking for Angel who told her he needed her to Artistaclly Sample her Marimba's with his Bass Fluit for an upcoming feature.... I want you to go by the Super Market and pick up the Largest cast iron frying pan and come home at once !!! Angel !

    Hi Rita

    Are we related?

    Btw... my wife plays Marimba
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    I'm just crazy about you.
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    I worked for two days yesterday, and just about when I couldn't keep my eyes open. Time to go to bed. I turned the Computer off. And walked by the piano. Unconsciously hit a minor and from the third 1/2 step up I played a Minor sharpened fifth or a Diminished flattened seventh from that went 1/2 step up Played another Minor. Again over and over. I then played a diminished flattened seventh 1/2 step under the fifth and went up 1/2 step to another minor and over and over. Then I alternated the two. Suddenly Melodies tension, release, Execution, Colors began to paint this Mural from the Ceiling. There was Missing Time. A Magnetic Shift. I felt light. A burst of Energy kept me up for another day. A Picture in Motion. Telepathic Viewing. I was driven by another Force. An acceleration, A spinning Movement. Its the Circular fourth and Fifth, The Leading Pure-tone Har-mony $. How is that so ? I found myself Painting this Colossal Mural of a Picture. With all the Colors blending from one key to another. In all twelve keys. This went on for another day. I'm not believing this. I looked at my Watch. It was spinning out of control. As if time was Flying by. I got scared. All this happened unexpectedly, Subconsciously. I was just walking by the piano. Will I be able to do this again ? By now, I'm Exhausted. Then I had to very politely exit with the Neapolitan sixth and go to bed before I collapsed. I'm not a Machine. I'm only human. Everyone is always asking; When are you going to finish ? I reply. When I finish. It Takes Time. Ther's no way around it. Do you want a Good Picture ? Please be nice. I'm doing my best. ! ...... M. Angelo
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    No, it's da Vinci who would have used MIDI in combination with painting. Come to think of it, he probably would have invented MIDI, if he lived in the 1980s.  That is a frightening thought... Da Vinci doing disco. 

    My apologies for that image.
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    No, Yes William. I Remember. You're absolutely right. Very Observant of you. That Picture of Leonardo in the Front of the Ship. With his Painting of his Love. When the Ship hit the Iceberg in the Middle of the night. Frightening thought. So many people. Too many Notes, it just couldn't hold up. The Structure fell apart. Davinci did leave his code behind. He said to use the 6/4 Triads or the 5-1-3 in Folds. II Inversions. Cm-G7 / Gm-D7 / Dm-A7 etc.. I found another Code I stumbled on. He said to Take any Minor 5-1-3 Triad and fold it back and forth. Then Flatten the Middle finger 1 step. Or the 1, 1 step down. Its now a I inversion Triad(2-5-1). Or a Minor Sharpened 5th. Next go up 1/2 step and play a Diminished 7th. Or a Diminished flattened 3th. Then go back down to the Minor Sharpened 5th. And go down 1/2 step again to a Diminished flattened 7th. Then Go up again to a 5-1-3 Triad. And repeat. It will use the Twelve keys Appropriately. Find a way around, much stable structure to use. The Davinci Code. Thanks for Bringing it to attention. Thought everyone had the Code already.... Micheal Angelo ....
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    @Micheal Angelo said:

    I'm just crazy about you.

    Lovely Rita...

    Who is not?

    Glad to hear that your sex change operation was succesful. Rita is dead, long live Michelangelo! Actually to bad, right now there is a vacancy in my Harem in Orta San Guiglio, and chief eunuch Osman Salamalalei-Talcum retires not before another seven years

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    lol
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     One thing on the original topic of this thread I have been thinking about is the concept of "writing for the sample."

    This is considered bad.  Why?

    Don't you "write for the violin" when scoring a violin solo?  Or "write for the organ" when doing a pipe organ piece?  In other words, you must use the characteristics of the "instrument" in question in a very detailed and precise way.  Why should it be different with the instrument known as a Sample Library?  

    My impression at this stage is that using samples to duplicate a live orchestra becomes somewhat pointless after a certain level of complexity. There seems to be some connection between SIMPLICITY and samples in the most effective use of them.  One can do a performance of a piece of music that is relatively simple, and it can sound as good or better than a live orchestra  and in fact be more appropriate for samples, because of its simplicity not being something a live orchestra would be interested in performing.  Some of the demos here are like that.  Does anyone notice this connection?  In other words if you do things that are really complicated you start beating your head against the wall, but when you do something simple it can often sound astoundingly good. 

    And this aspect might form the basis of a serious artistic approach.   A kind of well-selected minimalism seems more powerful than anxiously trying to duplicate every single musical expression that a live orhcestra can create.

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    This is the time to stop and smell the roses. After 10 years and 5 Computer. Multiple upgrades of sampling. What is the verdict ? From the work and production of all the different Examples here from this forum. Which is the Best. I've heard it all. Finally. It can be accomplished. What is the final proof is obviously the most Complex Music. Or the most meaningful Music. Which is played around the world. Being of the Great Composers obviously. This is a might Accomplishment for both. The real and the Sampling. Music doesn't get any better. So what is looked at next is two points: the Musicianship, and using Samples for an instrument range and audition as you mentioned william. Beethoven & Mozart to speak of were both Violinist. You know they had their violins on top of their pianos for use during writing. They orchestrated their work. And probably are the best. Isn't that like using samples ? next Musicianship. A Ha ! That is the 64 dollar point to make. As you stated William. You've had Orchestras demolish your Work. And you also have Musicians Demolish with samples. So, it seems that at a certain point its either way. One of the Best Traditionalist Composers in the World today is; i think, Guiilherme Schroeter. If you listen to his work, My God its torn all to pieces by the Orchestra. The Next point to make, in sampling one has to content with is engineering. Boo yuck and a million yucks. What a waist of a life. This is a profession on its own. Before Computers came along. A good engineer in the music business was priceless. He could ask what ever he wanted. And everyone new the best around the world. Mixing and Engineering is not as simple as one brushes it off to be. In fact, the Music business is really about mixing and engineering and Studios. The Best had spent their life learning the craft. Its as complex as learning to play music in a lifetime. That is the difference between the live players and the Sampling. Having said all that. the other side of the Coin as you mentioned william. One can have other aspects of using samples as pulling up the sound in one's face. Where the live can't even begin to have a say so at the most part. there are so many ways to use sampling, One can't even begin to mention. I've waited ten years to look at this issue and use my songs in the best possible way to coin an orchestrated version. And what seems to be the best is the simplest. Ironically. You also see the simplicity William. It appears that if you architect as the great Composers did. Then one has to architect by music notation. Weather its written and played from the Samples. Or just played by reading the music. Here again the Musicianship is epic, Correct & Accurate. And minute or miniscule compared to all the other Commercialists.. And if one creates an impression, then it can produce more than a real orchestra can even dream of. Of course. One might lack the notation score. Or might not have the exact score. But for a Song say, what does it matter. I heard Angelo's work the other day in Songs. And it seems to re-proof or re-inforce what's been trying to adjunct after all these years as one way to deliver an Orchestrative Impression. And a way to use an orchestra in a song. Is sort of Similar to scoring for motion picture with samples. where anything goes. But someone who's been around for a while will always make a better judgment in sound as someone young. Might take a longer time at it though. But, I always pay more attention to those that have been around for a while. One way which seems to work in songs and or Simplicity is playing a full orchestra patch Sample or an Ensemble patch by gushing it out with both hands and all fingers and paying attention to phrases and manipulation in overtones and creative accidents of sounds. And then underlining it with the Contra basses slightly fading in and out underneath it in its own melody line harmonizing in parallel. That sounds better than a real Orchestra. In that type of Sketching. Its literally painting with music. And looking at it from a telescope further back Impressionistic picture. Different Contour of Sound. With only used two patches. On other occasions, you hear producers use one sample in a song as the cello, and make it as the ear is inside the cello. Or the ear is at the resin of the bow as it vibrates the string. Completely new and creative. Yes Simplicity can take a whole new approach to Sampling. And We need a warm up Plugin also. Working in the Digital Domain is like being squeaky clean. Pre-amp Warm up Plugins just add noise to the signal. And it takes the synth sound out.. Its still Engineering that becomes the factor at the end. You can look at the average Orchestra Musician Today and compare. He is the mixing Engineer for a live performance sort to speak. Most are on cortizone. This is what they sacrifice themselves for. And no one will ever point them out as they have accomplished anything. Sort of sad to think about. They must be frustrated out of their gourds. And you can look at the average Sampling Guru. He has the whole Orchestra and more at the end of his or her fingertips. That is Frightening. In my neighborhood, you don't mess around with jim. Meaning, power is Power. I've been told on occasions not to try this at home with a real Orchestra. Much less than that much power under a fingertip. I think more people feel the heat from that sort of thing than what is perceived to be an argumentative issue based from real and not real. And the other side of the coin here lies. I can do all this from behind my private closed door. When ever was that possible ? I don't care if you listen to my music or comment about this and that. The mere Accomplishment is good enough. That's what Ligetti said before he died not too long a go. Micheal Jackson's last CD coast him 20 Million Dollars to produce. And it didn't sell. As well as Garth Brooks costing 3 to 4 million. I'm not sure if it sold or not. Most likely is selling on shelves. I have all the great respect for those that have done it before me. And those that are older. Music is the most powerful Communicative art known to Humanity. Painting with it can be infinite and a benevolent power at hand. As well as a profitable Profession if its Tracked, Mixed, Funneled and or fueled correctly by the right channels and powers to be.
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    Hey!  Didn't I see RK and then it changed to Jim?

    Anyway, very interesting post!  I agree with a lot of that, especially the enthusiasm.  It is a powerful and unprecedented tool that composers have now, and the analogy with painting is very appropriate - one can truly paint with sound with this new form.
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    I have heard people state things that seem to indicate that samples are not acceptable as a final performance.  They are O.K. as a substitute for the "real thing" (whatever that is) but not as a serious, definitive performance.  I wonder how many people agree with that.  Unfortunately a lot I would estimate.