@DaveTubaKing said:

A little perspective is needed. You say 90% of their customers had very strong feelings. How many customers do you think they have. A few hundred? a few thousand? tens of thousands? I suspect nearer the latter. I haven't counted but I suspect the number of people (not posts) on this forum who have had very strong feelings is no more than 150. I think we're a little closer to 1% expressing very strong feelings.

 It has been said in marketing that 1 complaint represents the opinion of 1000 customers. Take it for what it is worth.

@Errikos said:

I said 90% of customers HAD, not expressed, strong feelings. Do you know how predictive demographic polls work for elections? You take a look at the sample you generate and create a percentage for all the rest of the population you don't get opinions from. There are a lot of customers who do not write on this forum; I have been one since 2005 or 6 and I wrote my first post when this fiasco occurred. And what do you think? That the thousands that did not write said "Ah great! I am so relieved now that I will have to pay €9000 for the Cube as opposed to €5000"?... I admit that quite a few (like Jay Chattaway) don't care about such financial discrepancies one way or the other and they don't count as they wouldn't mind if Apples and PCs started costing €18000 (fully specd) again, but to actually contemplate that more than a small minority would accept what happened as a bonding... Again, it was not my intention to re-open this discussion - unless new ground could be covered, we said what was to be said - merely that at least it is my wish that this particular thread will continue to carry a foul odor from what transpired.

I said you said 90% of customers HAD, not expressed, strong feelings. To suggest you can know the feelings of 90% of the VSL customer base is patently absurd.

@DaveTubaKing said:

A little perspective is needed. You say 90% of their customers had very strong feelings. How many customers do you think they have. A few hundred? a few thousand? tens of thousands? I suspect nearer the latter. I haven't counted but I suspect the number of people (not posts) on this forum who have had very strong feelings is no more than 150. I think we're a little closer to 1% expressing very strong feelings.

@DaveTubaKing said:

A little perspective is needed. You say 90% of their customers had very strong feelings. How many customers do you think they have. A few hundred? a few thousand? tens of thousands? I suspect nearer the latter. I haven't counted but I suspect the number of people (not posts) on this forum who have had very strong feelings is no more than 150. I think we're a little closer to 1% expressing very strong feelings.

That is how you read my not having posted here earlier having been a customer for so long. There are many reasons why this could be the case, only one of them being what you say  "you have no interest in contributing to this Community. Is it that you just like to complain and try to spoil it for others"... I'll just say that I would write only when I felt I could contribute or help someone out. This just has not been the case, since although I have owned the products for a while, I am not an expert such as yourself and others here (perhaps you can read into this that I am mentally retarded). I have great respect for people such as yourself who give out so much to users-in-need, I wish I knew half as much about the technology as you do, and would very much enjoy an opportunity to hear your VSL audio results.

Through the years (for quick breaks off work) I have a few times followed threads where regulars here have cockfought each other to relax my mind and for great laughs!! This Roman arena of course still goes on and provides the same kind of hilarity as it always has mainly for the following reasons: a) people can get so angry at each other here (for no reason really) and it's funnier than the token forum situation since it involves orchestral composers, (not even in academia have I encountered such hostility so regularly),  b) they have no skills on how to build a cogent argument (through dialectics, induction, etc.), or even be able to read properly into other people's arguments(!), or they fail to realize that what they argue about can sometimes naturally accommodate strictly subjective approaches. And sometimes they fail to see the point, as is the case here...

1) I was not the one that initiated this thread,

2) This case was about me losing a lot of money through the questionable actions of a company to which I had contributed in its infancy and quite heavily; not about whether Stravinsky was better than Mozart, or the music to Psycho was better than that of Jaws, what have you... I suppose we all felt that through a collective complain (something we could not really know was done if we all wrote privately) maybe Herb would reinstate the VIP plan, plus to their credit they allowed it to be viewed - dirty laundry - by anyone on the web, including rival companies, and perhaps a branch of the European Commission. This was why I entered a public dialogue in the first and only place. We did manage to secure a "later" deadline for the upgrade through this - did not make me happy personally, but I felt it was worth a try when someone was dipping into my pocket as opposed to just making a silly musical comment... VSL's explanations did not really address the point and were questionable at best, but they made a business decision. Business decisions are about money, not samples, universal brotherhood, etc. And so it should be and so it was. Thus, perpetual privileges were stripped, not because of spite, but money! We all addressed the propriety and ethics of what happened hoping to reverse the action because right was with us, but we left logistics out since we are not privy to such information (nor should we be), and because if and when it all comes down to money in business, everything else goes out the window (as it did)...

3) I am still a customer, I have since made another purchase, since every one of us weighs the pros and cons in any situation and evaluates every business relationship. This action has been painfully noted but so has everything else positive that VSL has done. In short I have moved on...

I write in my post that "we said what was to be said" - did you miss that perhaps ("Like it or not, it has all been explained"). It is just that after all the bitterness and the efforts in this thread, I don't think R.M.'s epitaph so long after the ashes have settled was reflective of the thread's spirit, or this particular experience with the company. After all, the odour is in the nose of the besniffer, and this is my own.

P.S.: Dave, I explained my rationale, you did not say that I thought 90% of the customers had expressed themselves, but that is the point you made. It is a fact that you cannot know how every customer feels, but you can make an educated guess from a demographic sample (there are people that, like me, had never written before and did for the first time in that thread, are they all whingers like DG suggested?). Of course I also said that in this case you did not need a demographic sample; who in their right mind would prefer to pay full money for a product when he can pay half?

Best wishes to all,

Errikos. 

Wow. After reading this I don't feel bad for the whole library being on torrent sites. Nice job ripping off loyal customers who obviously pay ridiculous amounts for your software, Vienna. I also like how one of the main selling points is the repetition feature that you don't include in your Special Edition yet make no mention of it. $500 upgrade to unlock a simple feature? No thank you. And when you put the phrase "Extended Edition must be unlocked online" on the back of a box that says it includes both editions, that phrase does not translate to "Extended Edition sold separately." You guys make great software, but you're definitely a shady business. Honesty gains loyalty. If people know what they're paying for they just might buy it instead of getting ripped off and turning away from your products. Who's going to invest in a business that can't be trusted to follow thru with what they advertise??

I love the response "We can't have all the upgrade options parrallel." Liar. You don't WANT to have them parrallel. You'd rather force people to pay more money. There's nothing stopping you from have both upgrade options at once except greed. Why don't you treat your customers like they're valuable? Maybe you won't lose customers old and new alike. I thought Degidesign was the evil corporation in this industry.

Well said!

VSL has become a bit of a bad word around my parts. I am shocked a company would allow themselves to gain such a bad name while having such a good product. They put themselves at risk of the next best thing coming along and taking their client base due to the lack of loyal customers.

A good name is better than fine silver or gold. VSL is in a race now that if they fall behind they are done.

Oh well! Not like they could not have turned it around.

 welcome Opey,

to read this words (incl. calling people at VSL liars) is very intersting and a very nice start for someone who purchased the first product (a special edition standard library) just yesterday ...

maybe you like to gather your informations more carefully in the future before posting rude comments without even saying hello when entering a virtual room ...

christian

You guys are very quick to defend yourself rather than change.

What sense makes it only to offend here instead of contacting the VSL-Team with a special problem? After such a long time?  I would give the advice: 1. Read;   2. think;   3. write or better be quiet.

Hi VSL

It is not very good for your reputation to have this thread going to 20 pages !!!

Start the 2009 year on a good foot, give upgrade path to your old customers [:D]

You have nothing to loose, everything to win !!!

Best

Cyril

@ccherrett_23712 said:

VSL has become a bit of a bad word around my parts. I am shocked a company would allow themselves to gain such a bad name while having such a good product. 

[:O]

Well imagine if VSL were like Northern Rock or Lehman Brothers for example. I don't quite understand what you are talking about. This is a sample company with limited resources that needs  cashflow just like all the other sample library companies. They can't just raise money like all these banks and I don't think the type of money we are talking about here is particularly huge in the greater scheme of things. Without cashflow, there would be no sample companies - would that make you feel better?

 well, since i have subscribed to this thread i'm notified about new posts ...

btw: there is nothing to defend and it has been stated already several times it can't be changed

looking into your products i'm rather asking myself why you didin't upgrade to say the special edition but to the pro 4 month after the new upgrade paths have been announced ... probably it is related to the fact you prefer to run linux?

christian

I have been in business for 9 years running a computer programming company catering to school boards. I get to make the upgrade policies and pricing. Don't make it sound like VSL had no choice. I certainly shared my emails with them and heard them take no responcibility for any situation that came up.

I would hope another company comes up with better samples and VSL no longer has this reign. I am not going to cry for VSL, they got my money!

I sure do love running linux. Again you are in defence. Always defending your mistakes.

cm: You eliminated my discount man and claimed I got a good deal because it was a final discount on the sale. Nothing ever said that on my license or on your training promo video. When I bought OPUS 1 and 2 this was never a concern for getting a discount on an upgrade. Then when I could afford to make my move you abbandoned your product line discount. So don't push on me that it is because I ran linux. I cleared my use of linux with your company before I purchased. I went into this investment with my eyes wide open. You changed the rules not me.

also in my opinion the discussion is in fact obsolete ... gigastudio went out of business, exs wouldn't be capable to run the full new libraries (even if apple would be willing to integrate some kind of new performance tool as plugin into exs), ect. ect - let's face it: the technology is outdated

upgrade paths: though i love mathematical and logical problems and the currently active literally thousands of upgrade discount combinations work rather nice it would have been a nightmare to integrate additional cases originating from the sample libraries, which actually would have contained upgrade cases within theimselves .... shiver ...

christian

That is if you consider Aplle and Microsoft the only platforms to work on.

I have been actively developing and tweeking my setup of Linuxsampler and Ardour3 on linux. I have The Performance Tool running in wine and can load my samples with ON-DEMAND-HOLD so I can effectively have samples load and unload realtime and give me the ability to not have to bounce my tracks.

With ARDOUR3 there is support for MIDNAM and I have converted my mappings over to it. ARDOUR3 allows the user to create program changes from one track with namings from the MIDNAM file so you can run your articulations from mostly one track instead of having to layer your tracks and only depend on The Performance Tool.

This is all being done with .gig files. So I would say the tech is far from dead. The only thing that is dead is Gigastudio and I have never used that anyways.

But I think VSL and I have had this conversation before.

 chris, i didn't say it is dead, i mentioned it is outdated ... whereas the guy at linuxsampler.org obviously did a great job during the past years and the performance tool might run nicely in wine there was a strong - if not actually anavoidable - demand for a new tool.

the result was the vienna instruments (engine) providing 12 x 12 x 12 x 2 x [number of velocity layers] = thousands of layers plus much more advanced rule-sets than the performance tool would be capable to cover, not even talking about preloading and streaming now or working with sets of 20 and more GB loaded samples ...

not too many users would be able and willing to create and maintain a linux audio workstation for those or even less demands, but who knows ... if some *off the shelve* linux distribution will become available and syncrosoft provides an LCC for it (and the whole thing including audio drivers becomes supportable) maybe we will see a linux compile for VI/VE one day ....

christian

btw: i never tried, say using ubuntu, but i'd assume the performance tool would not work on a 64bit linux beyond 4 GB loaded data ...

:)

In linuxland we have the joy of running 64 bit systems and 32 bit apps. I am running 32bit wine with The Performance Tool on my 64 bit system with 8GB of RAM.

My system is a custom compiled Gentoo 64 bit, AMD Phenom Quad 8GB RAM. I have been building and tweeking it for 4 years now. You are right linux is not ready from the masses yet, but it will be and I offered to help VSL get there.

I will continue to push the old VSL on linux and hope you guys come over some day. I will keep you up on my progress. We are weeks away from our final studio setup and I can finally show you what we have built

Hey possibly we could be nice to each other again :)