@Another User said:

"Why the *** should they tell you anything? Huh? Are they a listed company? I don't think so. Are you a shareholder? Well I don't believe you can be.

So where the *** do get off making those sort of demands? And who the *** is we?

If I decide to defend VSL because they understandably cannot - then that's my fucking decision - and if you don't like it - you can go and *** yourself! And if you want me to repeat that face to face - be my guest!!!"

I don't know what kind of forums you frequent at, but I would think this kind of posting doesn't belong at the VSL forum.

If someone chooses to call VSL liars, it's their buisness, but does it qualify as an insult? Well, it should be clear to most by now that nothing in their markeding atleast has indicated that complete removal of the "upgrade" paths.  So lying, misleading, corporate move...I don't know. It was certianly unexpected.

Most of the people posting here makes it quite clear that, ofcourse, money is an issue. Not everyone can afford these prices, still they choose to spend money on VSL products. Also alot of people has, despite postes with "negative" content, stated their clear respect for both the VSL and their achivements. We expect VSL to show us the same courtesy.

But again, why do I even bother to post this, it's time to ignore this guy as he probably is operating at an intelligence level way above our own. So how about not letting him drag this anymore off topic and keep trying to reach VSL? 

Back to topic...

"Maybe I'm wrong, but I have the feeling, that especially the people who didn't have any upgrade plans are most upset?"

Herb, is this really what you are reading from the all the above posts? In my opinion this couldn't be more wrong! Atleast what I am seeing is alot of people who absolutly love your accomplishments, your products and your policy. And from that I read that they want to keep it that way. I certainly think most were planning to upgrade. But moving from words like "guarantee" and "lifetime" to 3 (6) months is kind of harsh, isn't it? I would think it's quite clear in what way your customers have percived the VIP policy.

Kind regards

Tom-Erlend Malm

@Another User said:

Whether you like it or not - you have behaved badly on this, and other forums. You need to stop right now. If you have these problems - write to VSL direct. If they don't reply straightaway - then try and be patient for a change.

Don't make me laugh. All I've done is ask for some answers, express an opinion, and talk about how this latest development makes me feel. I thought it was an open forum. Apparently it's fine for you to call everyone stupid if they don't agree with you, to use foul language every time someone gets under your skin, and to openly declare your disregard for the welfare of everyone else; but I'm behaving badly?

@Marsdy said:

 Some of you may own the Performance Tool Tutorial DVD released in 2004.

On it there's a chapter called "Create Reality". Starting at 11'22", Paul Stenibauer discusses an upgrade path from Opus 1. At 11'35" he clearly states the following...

"...and we offer an upgrade path which guarantees that you never pay twice for the samples you already own."

With hindsight, it seems this claim is manifestly untrue or, to put it another way, it's a bare faced lie.

Hi Marsdy,

if you upgrade till July 15th 2008 you will get your upgrade price. (plus free extended libraries)

If VSL introduce any time in the future a new sampler platform there will be upgrade options, too.

(we do not have any plans now, but who knows)

And if you don't want to upgrade you don't pay twice.

Just curious, what were your primary upgrade plans?

Maybe I'm wrong, but I have the feeling, that especially the people who didn't have any upgrade plans are most upset?  

best

Herb

Hello Herb,

I am not Marsdy obviously, and may I say that you joining this discussion as opposed to just monitoring it is at least a step forward, and if you could clarify a few things for us perhaps we can arrive at a mutually acceptable solution.

I certainly have plans to upgrade, as I believe most users here do, if for no other reason, beause other companies do not seem to make their products fully compatible with your early illustrious offerings. I don't think anybody here is a moron, customer or company member, yet some are drifting from the main issue, and the company does not seem to answer it, so:

1) The upgrade plan was offered forever (at least the lifetime of the licensee or the company's). As a consequence, regardless of any new products or combinations thereof offered, if the playing samples remained the same, the licensee should not be required to pay a cent more, not one! What we shall understandably be charged for will be a new engine, interface, etc. That is why this 15th of July (or October) deadline is irreconcilable with the company's long known motto. Not this year's July or the next's. If you said instead "whoever upgrades until July gets extra extended libraries" that would be perfectably acceptable, as you would be attempting to generate cashflow with an incentive, without compromising the original contractual warranty. However, this is not the case here, is it?

2) "If VSL introduce any time in the future a new sampler platform there will be upgrade options, too.

(we do not have any plans now, but who knows)"

What is this about? "Who knows?"?? I want to know and a lot of other users here I am sure will want to know too. And the main question is: Upgrade options for them as well means what exactly? Can you enlighten us with a hypothetical example? For instance, someone paid for the Pro Edition. Upgrading to the Cube now will cost him an additional €5400. How much will the upgrade path for a new sampler platform cost him (if it does not involve a complete re-recording of an orchestra)? Another €5400 for the same samples? How much will it cost to a complete newcomer that has not patronized your shop thus far? Will you sell it to him for €15000 over?

Thanks,

Errikos 

@tommalm said:

"Maybe I'm wrong, but I have the feeling, that especially the people who didn't have any upgrade plans are most upset?"

Herb, is this really what you are reading from the all the above posts? In my opinion this couldn't be more wrong! Atleast what I am seeing is alot of people who absolutly love your accomplishments, your products and your policy. And from that I read that they want to keep it that way. I certainly think most were planning to upgrade. But moving from words like "guarantee" and "lifetime" to 3 (6) months is kind of harsh, isn't it? I would think it's quite clear in what way your customers have percived the VIP policy.

I can only speak for myself ofcourse, but I will have to upgrade money or no money. It's that or no VI's as the price will become to high.  It is just sad it has to happen this way. And ofcourse it sets the mood for future interaction between VSL and your customers. I don't think that is too hard to see.

Kind regards

Tom-Erlend Malm

I am in the same boat. I have spent years trying to buy into VSL, and had every intention of upgrading. If that weren't the case there is no way I'd be adding my voice here.

The current situation has left me really indecisive. On the one hand I am part way through building a system around the VIs, and am tempted to go into debt to finish - there is absolutely no way I will ever manage to upgrade without the VIP plan, so it has to be now or never. On the other hand I'm now really unsettled about how the future will pan out if I do stretch my finances to upgrade. I don't want to be left behind again in a year. Hence my needing to understand what's going on.

@herb said:

Maybe I'm wrong, but I have the feeling, that especially the people who didn't have any upgrade plans are most upset?  

I woudn't be concerned with who is most upset. I would be concerned that, as your comment implies, everyone is upset.

 And on a lighter(?) tone for aficionados:

http://www.apple.com/downloads/dashboard/justforfun/ferengirulesofacquisition.html 

@Another User said:

And if you don't want to upgrade you don't pay twice.

I am not quite clear what you are saying here. Do you mean that if I DO upgrade than I will pay twice?

As I said, in answer to your question, No, I have no immediate plans to upgrade especially not now.

Perhaps you could now do me the courtesy of answering a question I have. Why are you breaking clear and explicit promises you have made to your customers.

@herb said:

Maybe I'm wrong, but I have the feeling, that especially the people who didn't have any upgrade plans are most upset?  

I woudn't be concerned with who is most upset. I would be concerned that, as your comment implies, everyone is upset.

I don't think so:

- Most of our users are excusively Vienna Instrument users, never licensed a Sample Library from us.

- Most of our Sample Library users have already upgraded

- A lot of users like to get the "Free Extended Offers" with this final upgrade sale

- all users who really want to upgrade but do have problems with the funding, could contact their distributors  to make a setup

So finally there are all users, who prefer their Kontakt, Giga, EXS platforms, and don't want to make a change,

but they also don't want to loose their theoretical upgrade option.

I'm sorry, that I don't have a convincing solution in this case.  

best

Herb

 There is a perfectly simple and convincing solution in this case:

1) The upgrade option is certainly not theoretical, it was publicly advertized on the web-site and the products themselves, and

2) Those "few" insignificant of us (I believe this is the most populated thread ever, if not certainly the fastest growing), which if we count the separate entries we are roughly worth a few hundred thousands of euros (all I keep hearing is how small and vulnerable this company is... If these numbers mean nothing to a software company, then the size has been underestimated), I am sure we can be accommodated on our continuing upgrade paths for when WE, not VSL, feel comfortable and ready to upgrade. As for my other questions, well I suppose that is what they will remain,

Sincerely

Errikos. 

@herb said:

 

I don't think so:

- Most of our users are excusively Vienna Instrument users, never licensed a Sample Library from us.

- Most of our Sample Library users have already upgraded

- A lot of users like to get the "Free Extended Offers" with this final upgrade sale

- all users who really want to upgrade but do have problems with the funding, could contact their distributors  to make a setup

So finally there are all users, who prefer their Kontakt, Giga, EXS platforms, and don't want to make a change,

but they also don't want to loose their theoretical upgrade option.

I'm sorry, that I don't have a convincing solution in this case.  

best

Herb

Herb, I'm not quite sure how to interpret this reply. I think what Shredordead meant, is that everyone on this thread is upset, and maybe that the u-turn on the VIP policy serves to also get the VI exclusive users upset regarding similar future situations. 

But still, are you saying that it is ok to cancel the upgrade possibilies to those who bougth the sample libraries, because there are enough VI exclusive users? Don't you think that showing your customers that the VIP policy won't function as originally intended will upset customers, including VI exclusives? And thus have a possible impact on future sales?

"Most of our Sample Library users have already upgraded"

Why is this still being brougth up? Is it ok to cancel the advertised upgrade possibilites because there aren't that many left whom has not upgraded?

"A lot of users like to get the "Free Extended Offers" with this final upgrade sale"  

Ofcourse, but still there are people whom cannot afford the deal right now.

"all users who really want to upgrade but do have problems with the funding, could contact their distributors  to make a setup"

Really? All users can contact their distributers and do what? Make a reservation? An indefinate reservation? Or are you implying that anyone can get/afford the upgrade via some kind of credit arrangement? In that case I think you overestimate alot of your customers current economy.

None of this actually explains anything about why you chose to completly remove the upgrade paths. If such a cancelation is necessery you would think the customers atleast deserved a much longer grace period or warning, (Yeah I know I keep saying it) because this is such a complete u-turn in terms of how your customers percived the original VIP policy.

One last note, none of this is meant to be neither insolent or disrespectful in any way. I just want to understand why you think both the cancelation and the time frame is reasonable and necessery.

Kind regards

Tom-Erlend Malm

DG:

Thank you very much for your generous words. I feel similarly about your many constructive contributions to others on these forums. I would much rather be participating the usual kind of collaborative creative dialogue that has inhabited these forums over the years. But, on this issue, I can't remain silent.

I am afraid that, in regard to whether discussion should be private or public, I must respectfully disagree with your position. This became a public discussion because VSL made a public announcement of a policy change. None of us were privately (or publicly) consulted about the wisdom of suddenly announcing an upgrade policy totally inconsistent with the statements originally made by VSL about what its upgrade policy would be. Had I been asked, I would have predicted something similar to the reaction that has, in fact, occurred and I might have suggested another course or at least a more adequate explanation to avoid or minimize such a reaction.

A friend of mine seemed genuinely surprised when, after explaining to his wife of five years that his need for self-expression was such that he would no longer be able to keep his vows of monogamy, his, normally gentle, spouse cracked a porcelain dinner plate upon his head. When he expresssed surprise and dismay with her action - - so uncharacteristic of her usual behavior - - she replied that she too had a need for self-expression.

Again and again people here are saying that a promise was made by VSL and that the change in policy recently announced by VSL breaches that promise. Their upset, like the reaction of my friend's wife, was not impossible to predict. If one announces a course of action and gets the kind of reaction that one sees on this thread, the most rational thing is, I think, to listen to what is being said and consider the possibility that one may have made a mistake. At least that is what I would do (and have done when an action that I thought innocuous elcited unexpected dismay and alarm). When so many react so strongly, it doesn't help to dismiss their response as irrational, one really has to entertain the possibility that people are reacting to something whose significance one did not anticpate or include in one's decision making process. The ball is now, I think, in VSL's court regarding what it wants to do about a significant group of formerly loyal, but now dismayed, customers. 

For those who would like to maintain that breaches of promise are ok - - because "it's business," or the "way of the world" or whatever, I suggest reading the following from today's MacObserver:

<<Vista Capable Appeal Upheld, MS Stays in Court
by Jeff Gamet, 10:15 AM EDT, April 22nd, 2008

A lawsuit alleging that Microsoft misled customers with its "Vista Capable" product claims is free to move forward now that an appeals court has denied the company's request to block class-action status. The company had hoped to keep the case from moving forward so that it could keep potentially damaging internal communications from seeing the light of day, according to Computerworld.

Microsoft filed its request with the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals after a U.S. District Court Judge ruled in February that the lawsuit qualified for class-action status. The appeals court upheld the lower court's ruling on April 21.

The lawsuit against Microsoft claimed that the software company deceived customers with its "Vista Capable" program that identified certain PCs as ready to run the newest version of the Windows operating system. Many of the computers identified as Windows Vista compatible, according to the suit, were able to run only the Home Basic version of the operating system -- a stripped down version that does not include many of operating system's the more prominently featured components.

Microsoft denied that it misled customers and moved to stall the case while it worked to get the class-action status reversed. According to the Redmond company's filing, continuing the legal action could "jeopardize Microsoft's goodwill" and "disrupt Microsoft's relationships with its business partners" because it would be required to reveal potentially damaging internal email messages.

Now that the case is free to move forward, Microsoft says that it is looking forward to its day in court. Company spokesman Jack Evan commented "The Ninth Circuit's decision not to accept our request for interim review is not a ruling on the merits of our case. We look forward to presenting all of the facts on what the district court itself said is a novel claim.">>

Again, all this is about a broken promise. 

@tommalm said:

Well PaulR, to me this is cleary an insult to whomever on this thread it may be directed to.

Tom-Erlend Malm

@PaulR said:

Tom-Erlend Malm

Well at least Rinse was in time for his VIP upgrade .. just [;)]

Julian 

@herb said:

Regarding all requests for a longer upgrade period:

on July 15th the new upgrade price calculating system will be activated, so we can't check automatically the old upgrade prices after July 15th.

Anybody who wants to upgrade, but can't manage it till July 15th, can make a reservation at his distributor or send us an email

sales@vsl.co.at 

 

If we get these reservations before July 15th we can calculate the upgrade prices and make a note to your account, which we will keep for another 3 month.

 

But please note that the free extended offer will defenitely end on July 15th.

 

best

Herb

 

 

@herb said:

Just curious, what were your primary upgrade plans?

Maybe I'm wrong, but I have the feeling, that especially the people who didn't have any upgrade plans are most upset?  

best

Herb

Hi Herb,

As a Horizon user planning an upgrade to a rather large VI library package (see my e-mails), This thread has me deeply concerned about how long VSL will support users who invest in the current VI software platform.  Since the VI library is in a "locked format", I'm dependent upon VSL providing me with software upgrades to work with current OS platforms in the future.  Will I be forced into a major sample upgrade purchase such as is happening for the existing Pro-Edition and Horizon users?

As the Horizon libs were being sold here in the U.S. as recently as last fall (with upgrade options being an advertised "feature"), it seems like a rather short time frame to be cutting off upgrade paths for these users.  I would hope to be able to use a purchase such as this for 5-10 years.  Yet, as some are saying, the VI is already 2 years old, does that mean that, by investing late in the cycle, I'm investing in an expensive library that might require a substantially large additional upgrade investment in the near future?  Were the library still in the GIGA or Kontakt  format, I would be assured that upgrades to new OS platforms would be available for a reasonably typical software upgrade fee (of say $200-500).  However, I would be rather shocked to find out if my only upgrade option were to a new sample library (say the 32-bit version).

Also, I'm concerned about VSL cutting off upgrades options to previous users and alienating them as potential customers in the future.  As a potential VI customer, this affects me as well as you, as we all depend upon VSL to remain healthy and strong.
 

 What support commitment will VSL make to those currently considering investing in the VI software today?

Will you provide software-only update options?

I am asking not to make judgement on your business decisions, but to know what commitments I can expect as a customer.  If a major upgrade commitment might be expected in the near future, then maybe I can't afford the VI libs and should consider the SE instead?  I want to know whether there will be software only upgrade options that will allow me to continue using the sounds that I am investing in today.

I have other major expenses to plan for as well so I want to know what to expect if I invest in the VSL VI Library today and this thread has me seriously concerned and unsure about proceeding with my current planned upgrade.

Sincerely,

Gregory D. Moore 

@synergy543 said:

 

What support commitment will VSL make to those currently considering investing in the VI software today?

Will you provide software-only update options?

All future updates of the Vienna Instruments software will be for free.

New major features of the Vienna Ensemble software like the resently published crossplatform network version (VE3)

will be with costs.

best

Herb

So finally there are all users, who prefer their Kontakt, Giga, EXS platforms, and don't want to make a change,

but they also don't want to loose their theoretical upgrade option.

I'm sorry, that I don't have a convincing solution in this case.

Even this last statement, not vague, but bereft of encouraging content... "All future updates of the Vienna Instruments SOFTWARE will be for free"...We don't mind paying for your development of the software; how much can it cost anyway...

What about the library itself?... This question has been put forward a hundred times, and a hundred times it has been avoided like the plague...

How many times will we be expected to pay for the same sounds packaged in different boxes? Nobody here has refused to pay comparatively token money for improvements. Again, and again, and again, da Capo ad infinitum:

How many times are we expected to spend thousands for your 'copied'-'pasted' onto DVDs same sounds that we have already licensed? Not for new sounds, not for extra articulations, but for the thousands of samples that we already have.

Sincerely,

Errikos 

I does not currently own any VSL products, but have been eyeing the VSL SE for quite some time. This change of policy does not affect me at all but I still wanted to express how I feel for the people affected by it. I currently own the EWQLSO Gold XP and I would be absolutely shocked if one day, I found out that I could no longer upgrade to Platinum. We see a similar situation here with some of the VSL users not being able to upgrade to the Cube after a certain date. Only difference is that the VSL costs thousands of dollars. Music libraries ain't cheap. Esp. not the VSL ones. Top-notch quality but costs a ton. I believe that for both professionals and hobbyists, these libraries are a huge investment.

Yes, introducing upgrade plans for the SE folks is great. But WHY abbandon the First/Pro Edition users that have been with the company for such a long time?! Do you expect people to just shell out thousands of dollars to upgrade in a few months so that they can "protect their investment"?? Though I am not affected but this, I can't belive how ridiculous of a move a company can make on its loyal customers. People buy your smaller/cheaper packages in hope that when they could afford it, they can keep adding to their collection to eventually own the whole thing. You cut them off suddenly and they're left with "nothing", as far as the upgrade goes. I honestly feel really bad for them.

And here's some food for thought. Why would a prospective customer like myself be interested in the SE now that I'm not sure when you would take away my upgrade path?? I don't know if this move by VSL is an attempt to quicken the upgrades of some of its users or what. But it's doing no good convincing new customers to buy their products either. With this change of policy, none of your upgrade promises in the future would feel the same.

As customers, the only real way to express how we feel is with our wallets. Unfortunately, some users have already invested thousands of dollars in VSL's products and is now tied to this whole scheme. I honestly feel that those users might as well hold on to their current sample libraries, treat them as "as-is" products and move on to other alternatives as oppose to chasing this ever-changing upgrade path. And though I did have vast interest in "investing" in the SE, I no longer feel safe investing in VSL.

I really hope that VSL would reconsider their change of policy.