@julian said:

So you don't agree with the Inland Revenue who allow you to claim tax credits against your VSL expenditure as it is an "investment" in your business? Equally any one going to University is "investing" in their education and their future? Mind you what's dropping quickest at the moment VSL's "investment" or those sub-prime based SIPPS!!? Julian

@julian said:

So you don't agree with the Inland Revenue who allow you to claim tax credits against your VSL expenditure as it is an "investment" in your business? Equally any one going to University is "investing" in their education and their future? Mind you what's dropping quickest at the moment VSL's "investment" or those sub-prime based SIPPS!!? Julian

But let's face it, we're all just twisting words here. We all know exactly what Julian meant when he called VSL an investment. He meant that the amount we'd forked out was protected, put us at a certain stage on the ladder, and that we never slipped back.

It's a perfectly valid use of the word investment, which has many meanings. So please PaulR and DG, just leave the semantics alone. It's taking the discussion off on a rather pedantic tangent.

@Another User said:

in·vest·ment
–noun
1. The investing of money or capital in order to gain profitable returns, as interest, income, or appreciation in value.

This undoubtedly falls under the term investment. By buying one of the VSL libraries you (those who earn a living from their craft) are spending money to make money. As time marches on technology and realism get better. The Vienna Instruments also allow you to get that superior sound in a shorter time than with the older libraries. If your competitors take advantage of that improvement then they'll take the edge and get more work while you'll be left in the dust.

Of course the library you have purchased doesn't cease to be usable after the deadline - but it does begin to look and sound dated as time goes on. And you have lost your ability to increase its worth (in income terms) by upgrading - that is without paying twice for the same samples.

 You certainly know that things have come to a sorry pass when the conversation turns to narrow argumentation over what does or does not constitute an investment. For the record, when economists speak of "business investment," they include things like computer hardware and software, vehicles etc. - - hence there are rules in the U.S. tax code governing depreciation and amortization of "investments" which lose their value over time.

The real problem here is not a semantic issue. It is what is perceived by many as a breach of promise made to customers by VSL. The danger for VSL in this is that it threatens one of its most important business assets - - which is "good will." (The legalistically inclined will be glad to learn that "good will" is recognized by the U.S. tax code as a business asset.) The perception this decision engenders - - even among those who are not directly impacted by it - - is that whatever promises VSL makes now or in the future cannot be relied upon by its customers. Whether the income produced by this decision is worth any such loss of good will remains an open question.  Microsoft, Apple, Autodesk, Adobe and other supersized corporations frequently change the rules in this fashion and get away with it most of the time - - but the effect may be different on a small company.

I'll give one example: when I ordered my G5 from Apple in June 2004, I also ordered Logic 6. Apple was unable to deliver the G5 for several months. It arrived, together with Logic 6 just three weeks before the release of Logic 7.  Apple was adamant that if I had purchased Logic 6 a week later than the date they had charged my credit card, I would have been eligible for a free upgrade to Logic 7, but, since the interval was three rather than two weeks, I was not so eligible and would have to pay the $300 upgrade price for a product for which I had just spent $1000.

At the same time, as I ordered the G5 and Logic 6 from Apple, I had also ordered an upgrade of Digital Performer to version 4 but could not use it because of Apple's delay in delivering the G5. When Digital Performer 4.5 became available, MOTU notified me that I was eligible for a free upgrade - - even though it had been three months since I had ordered and received the upgrade to DP 4. As a result of Apple's policy, I did not upgrade to Logic 7 until about a year later.

Although I have respect for and use Apple's products, this experience demolished whatevever positive illusions I might have had about Apple's business practices. In Apple's calculation, it appears that the loss of good will engendered by their policy was of no concern. 

MOTU, on the other hand, appears to have decided that the loss of good will that would be engendered if they followed Apple's example, would have a significant negative impact on their business. But then, MOTU is a relatively small company aware that it does not have an enormous market into which it can sell computers, iPods, cellphones, AppleTVs, etc. 

Sorry for my bad english (it's not my mother language) 

I am (was?) the happy owner of some Horizon stuff (Opus 1, Solo Strings, Chamber Strings). I was planing to buy this year some VI (Brass 1, Woodwinds 1 and Special Keyboards) to add new colors to my set : I would have paid for this around 1300 Euros. Now I feel forced to upgrade my Horizon stuff before 15th of July for the same price... and get nothing but a (OK ! far better) piece of software, just not to loose for ever my VIP pass.

I am now just asking myself if I shall spend 1 Euro...

@julian said:

Mind you what's dropping quickest at the moment VSL's "investment" or those sub-prime based SIPPS!!?Julian

Pretty annoyed is an understatement. I feel well and truly ripped off and I wish I'd never invested money in this disreputable company.

..."Users will never be expected to pay for the same sample twice"..... a misquote I'm sure but that was the promise.

This ISN'T a misquote, it's from the VSL Demo Cube brochure of 2002 which I have in my hand: "VIP the Vienna Innovation Program Become a charter member of VIP as the Vienna Symphonic Library gradually expands to 1.5 million samples. Upgrade to bigger collections on hard disk at affordable prices. Cross-grade to future software platforms and technologies and feel safe in the knowledge that your investment in the future of orchestral music production will last a lifetime."

"Last a lifetime"? With hindsight, it appears this claim is nothing short of a bare faced lie.

I Have to agree with Paul and Mobius.. I also would like to see it extended to a six month period also. Since I am still saving to purchase the whole string package. Joseph

The following is taken directly from the Ilio (U.S. distributor of VSL products) newsletter of July 17, 2007:

"PRO EDITION & HORIZON SERIES
Final Days Close-Out Sale through September 15, 2007

Dear ILIO Subscriber,

While Vienna Symphonic Library’s award-winning Vienna Instruments Collections continue to expand their influence on modern music production, the time has come to say goodbye to their original product lines — the PRO EDITION and HORIZON SERIES sample libraries.

But rather than simply pull these great products off the shelves, we celebrate their legacy by offering them at significantly reduced prices!

This is your last chance! Get these great libraries now, while supplies last. What’s more, your purchase qualifies you for fantastic upgrade possibilities to the Vienna Instruments Collections!" (emphasis mine)

Then, the Ilio newsletter of September 5. 2007 stated the following:

"ONLY 10 DAYS LEFT TO SAVE BIG ON VIENNA SYMPHONIC LIBRARY!
Final Days Close-Out Sale ends next Saturday, September 15, 2007

Dear ILIO Subscriber,

We're running low on quantities of Pro Edition and Horizon Series sample libraries for EXS24, Gigastudio, Kontakt and HALion. So now is the time to take advantage of this last opportunity to save big, before they're gone!

While Vienna Symphonic Library’s award-winning Vienna Instruments Collections continue to expand their influence on modern music production, the time has come to say goodbye to their original product lines — the PRO EDITION and HORIZON SERIES sample libraries.

But rather than simply pull these great products off the shelves, we celebrate their legacy by offering them at significantly reduced prices!

This is your last chance! Get these great libraries now, while supplies last. What’s more, your purchase qualifies you for fantastic upgrade possibilities to the Extended Libraries of the Vienna Instruments Collections! In fact, you may save money by purchasing a Horizon or Pro Edition product now and then upgrading to a Vienna Instruments Extended Library later, as opposed to buying only the Vienna Instruments Full Library." (emphaisis mine)

Finally, the Ilio newsletter of November 27, 2007 stated the following:

"Vienna Symphonic Library Sample Libraries are 30% off!

But that's not all! We still have a limited quantity of Vienna Symphonic Library sample libraries on hand, including the Pro Edition and Horizon Series, and are discounting them 30% (while supplies last). These libraries will load into EXS24, HALion, Kontakt and Giga. Talk to one of our helpful sales reps to find out what's available.

To take advantage of this rare offer, simply shop our website at www.ilio.com, or call us at
(800) 747-4546."

So, it was only nine months ago that VSL was encouraging people to purchase the PRO Edition and Horizon series by stating that doing so would qualify them for "fantastic upgrade possibilities to the Vienna Instruments Collections!" - - and it has been only seven months since the Pro Edition and Horizon series officially ceased to be offered for sale with the idea that the purchaser would be qualified for "fantastic upgrade possibilities" and that, furthermore, the purchaser might "save money" - - and only 5 months since the U.S. distributor stopped promoting the sale of these libraries.

In light of these promotions, both in terms of their substance and their fairly recent date,  is it any wonder to anyone that many perceive VSL's new policy as a breach of promise?

In the course of this thread there have been made some very good arguments towards both why VSL have acted against there customers and why they should atleast show us the courtesy of reconsidering the total abolishement of the VIP policy.

And I sincerly hope this won't be silenced to death, as these things often end up when the small people is up against the big company.

VSL, you are about to destroy the much appriciated bond between yourselves and your customers. I think by now there should be absolutly no doubt about how the VIP policy has been percived by your customers. Also when knowing, and reading, how the VIP policy has been used in markeding the VSL products, there should be little or any doubt on which purpose this policy had from VSL's standpoint.

Knowing this I urge everyone, affected by this or not, state your opinion in this thread. This course of action from VSL, will also have consequences for the future. If VSL really pushes this through and drops the VIP paths for First/Pro/Horizon, then we know never again to trust the VIP policy, atleast for no longer than 90 days at a time. If the VSL team refuses to budge on the deadline or decides to give us the blind eye, we know what to expect in any similar future situation. In that cas no one will be the winner. We lose. VSL lose.

Although there have been similar situations in the past with unexpected turns regarding the VIP paths, this in my opinion is by far the most severe. Both for us, the customers, and for the VSL company.

So VSL, please, seeing theses reactions surly has to mean something to you. And please don't push the "blame" on SE customers demanding new upgrade paths. It just won't do. Atleast there should not be any doubt that this deadline is to short. Although you have achived great things through your businessness endevours, do not forget; in the end it's the customers that made it possible for you to reach this far.

I don't belive that this company, with it's talented, helpfull and spirited employees, which on a daily basis communicate with it's customers through the forums and thus removing the distances between us. I do not believe you want to alienate so many by taking this drastic "corporate" move. How can it really be worth it? Or is it something more to this which I totaly fail to see? 

Kind regards

Tom-Erlend Malm

@Marsdy said:

Pretty annoyed is an understatement. I feel well and truly ripped off and I wish I'd never invested money in this disreputable company. ..."users will never be expected to pay for the same sample twice"..... a misquote I'm sure but that was the promise. This ISN'T a misquote, it's from the VSL Demo Cube brochure of 2002 which I have in my hand: "VIP the Vienna Innovation Program Become a charter member of VIP as the Vienna Symphonic Library gradually expands to 1.5 million samples. Upgrade to bigger collections on hard disk at affordable prices. Cross-grade to future software platforms and technologies and feel safe in the knowledge that your investment in the future of orchestral music production will last a lifetime." "Last a lifetime" ? With hindsight, it appears this claim is nothing short of a bare faced lie.

I started to laugh when I read those quotes. That is until the reality of the situation came crashing back into my mind! It is indeed no laughing matter. How absurd and ironic is that?! The very text from VSL's own publication has now become a cruel joke.

I'm happy that someone found the exact verbiage...the actual words that created the expectation of a "lifetime" upgrade path. This combined with the recent marketing of discontinued Pro Edition and Horizon products with the promise of an upgrade path (with NO mention of an expiration date), means I'll be paying VERY close attention to how VSL responds to customer reaction to this sudden and ill-advised change of policy.

Fred Story

Regarding all requests for a longer upgrade period:

on July 15th the new upgrade price calculating system will be activated, so we can't check automatically the old upgrade prices after July 15th.

I always find these threads somewhat amusing.  Don't get me wrong, I understand the perspective of those wanting to get the most out of their "investment".

But, this situation is really no different than when they came out with the Special Edition.  Users who bought the full VI set at the time felt cheated because there was now a very decent alternative at 1/10 the price than what they paid.  So the users bitched and moaned about it.  

It's no different than when with the original pro edition, there was a claim it was to be  24-bit but when it shipped it was only 16-bit.  Only later  the same samples at 24-bit packaged in a new form.  Yes there were discounts, but anyone who followed this path still ponied up a lot.  So people bitched and moaned about it. 

Or the time when there was a christmas sale and everyone hurried up and bought what they thought was a good deal only to find out that a new product was just around the corner so they had to buy those samples yet again.  And they bitched and moaned about it.

All the bitching and moaning has paid off much of the time.  I suspect they know it's coming and so will always have a few bones to throw to keep people happy.  And I suspect there will be a few bones here.  Or maybe a six month plan was the plan all along and the three month announcement was to get everyone used to the idea with the six month plan being the bone.  They have to at least create the appearance that they are listening to their customers.  We'll see. 

Anyway, let's all just realize that these guys have a continually growing set of samples that they want to sell.  It's an asset, but a wasting one, unless they find new ways to sell the same thing over and over again.  They realize their best next customer is an existing customer.  So the plan is to come up with ways to make their customers buy the same product in a different form over and over and over again.  They come out with new bit sizes (based on the same original samples).  They come out with different bundles of instruments (never the same) but constituting many of the same samples that exist in other bundles.  

The product is good -- it's very good, but it's expensive.  Unless you're willing to pony up a couple thousand (pick your favorite currency) each and every year, then you should just sit by and watch, or find a more reasonable alternative (there are many).  Or you can bitch and moan with the hope that the bone you get for doing so will placate you for yet another round until next time.

My two cents. I have no illusions that those of us who buy these products won't pay for them many times over. 

Edit:  Seems like the 6-month bone got thrown while I was creating this post.  How convenient! 

You know, I'm happy to have another 3 months, so I don't want to look a gift horse in the mouth. (I just hope we don't go over budget on our studio relocation, preventing me from doing the upgrade anyway.) And I wouldn't even bother to write a post-mortem to the announcement except for my love of VSL's products, and what I perceive as their genuine commitment to serve composers and musicians like myself.

But here's some tough love, guys...you need some PR help in these matters! First, it's hard to imagine that you didn't anticipate backlash from such an announcement and take steps to soften the blow. And second, even when you give a little by extending the deadline, the tone seems abrupt. There certainly appears to be little effort to explain the inconsistencies between your past marketing materials and this sudden change in policy. To me, there's not a lot of ambiguity in the word "Lifetime". ("Bitching and moaning" accusations notwithstanding.)

Love is a two way street, you know.

Fred Story

I agree with pretty much everything said in dbudde's post (basically except the release of SE annoying the Cube owners - it is not the same situation as no pledge was made to them that there would not be a budget package of the library released (I bought one myself), to compare with the "never pay twice for the same sample etc." VIP policy [VIP = Very Immaterial Patron]; after all the Horizon series already were offered along with the Cube if not before it).

Probably true (but again benefit of the doubt should always be extended in my view) also that the six-months period was going to be offered anyway but since the same uproar would have ensued it is hereby "bone-thrown" as an improved deal to the outrageous three-month one. The reason I am adding this post I am afraid is to reiterate a grave concern of mine (for the last time in this discussion) since it chimes with the general business-practice put forward here by DBUDDE and because I believe it is important - forgive the insistence please. That is:

If we all pay ±€5400 to upgrade now to a two year old technology, will you ask of us another ±€5400 by Christmas for the next upgrade to another CUBE, and will it be an ultimatum VIP policy again, namely that we will lose our recently acquired upgrade if we haven't taken the opportunity until, say March, and then it will cost ±€9200? All up ±€20000 for the same samples with different engines in four-five years? Hypothetically speaking...

Best wishes,

Errikos 

I don't think it's impossible for VSL to keep the legacy upgrade path in addition to implementing the new one, but the number of upgrade combinations increases to a point where it may be too complicated to do so.

One of the reasons I purchased the Pro Edition was VSL's generous upgrade policy.  I was upset when the Vienna Instruments were released so soon after I purchased the Pro Edition, but what helped ease the frustration was knowing that I could upgrade at any time.  If you take away the legacy upgrade path, I may never buy another VSL product or recommend them to other people.