Christian & Herb:

Thanks very much for responding on this thread and for trying to give some further explanation of the reasons for your recently announced change in upgrade policy.

As to what has been happening on this thread, I think that the following example has some relevance:  If one takes an action that was, in one's own judgement, rational and innoucuous, which, nevertheless elicits a surprisingly intense negative reaction from a friend, it usually doesn't help the situation, if one does not express some understanding of why one's friend has become upset.

People's perception is that VSL made a promise of an upgrade path, a promise that stated:

" VIP the Vienna Innovation Program Become a charter member of VIP as the Vienna Symphonic Library gradually expands to 1.5 million samples. Upgrade to bigger collections on hard disks at affordable prices. Cross-grade to future software latforms and technologies and feel safe in the knowledge that your investment in the future of orchestral music production will last a lifetime." 

 A lot of people whose voices you hear on this forum perceive that VSL's recently announced change in upgrade policy appears inconsistent with the promise made or implied in the above quoted statement.

There may be very good reasons for (what many perceive as) a radical change in your upgrade policy, but you have not yet explained them in a way that calms the waters. I would suggest to you that, however angry, upset and dismayed the responses you read here may be - - that most of these responses come from people who are friends of VSL - - and that, indeed,  it is their very faith and trust in VSL that has made their response so intense. VSL has created a unique spirit of collaborative community among its users - - and people don't want to lose that, but now feel it is threatened. 

As long as VSL does not admit that there has been a change in policy that may adversely affect a significant group of its earliest customers and does not provide something like a clear explanation of why this change was necessary, the upset is likely to continue. If, for example, as you say, this change affects a relatively small number of people, couldn't some mutually satisfactory compromise be worked out? If this change in policy will result - - as you seem to suggest - - in new upgrade possibilities for those who have invested in (licenses for) the Vienna Instrument Libraries, then it might be helpful to spell this out sooner rather than later.

Please remember that as you know, I am not personally affected by this recently announced policy change. Because of that, you  might wonder why I've spoken out on this issue. The answer is that I am concerned about the potential negative effect on how VSL is perceived by its customers - - and therefore, a potential negative effect on VSL's long term survival. My personal stake is that I want VSL not only to survive, but to thrive. That means that if I think that you are doing something that is counter-productive to that goal, I feel bound to speak up about it. 

As I have said many times, I have greatest respect for you, for VSL's products, its unique commitment to excellence, its innovation, its responsiveness to technical issues. In fact, aside from the current situation, I can think of no other company that has fostered anything like the level of creative interaction with customers that VSL has encouraged from the start - - so I hope you will listen to what I say as the thoughts of a friend. 

 FOR CHRISTIAN

@Errikos said:

How many times are we expected to spend thousands for your 'copied'-'pasted' onto DVDs same sounds that we have already licensed? Not for new sounds, not for extra articulations, but for the thousands of samples that we already have

with all due respect and noticing your particular situation - it is far away from beeing copied&pasted ...

christian

At the speed replies and comments are being posted in this thread I wanted to give myself better chances of you seeing my reply Christian, hence the capitals at the beginning...

Thank you for the due respect and noticing, it is mutual, I wish the company would extend some too.. So, the sounds are far from being copied and pasted. So what? Has anybody here refused to reimburse VSL for any technological advances of the products? Has anybody here foamed in the mouth about a sensible premium for when they upgrade to an improved version of the VSL? Categorically no!

However, what about all the other questions I have asked? I cannot keep re-typing them in ten different versions... Our justified anxiety I have to say has been very poorly met, and the management's responses have been vague and tergiversational and continuously missing the mark...

And for all who (deliberately?) misconstrue this situation, read the following, as many times as you have to, until it sinks in:

This is NOT about VSL's customers wants or needs - that refers to non-possession. This is about something we already OWN being taken away from us. What? The right to a lifetime of possibility of upgrade, something we paid for when we first purchased the product.

Since the product is not dropped and VSL is not starting to build harmonicas, the above is not an expectation, it is a given privilege.

In a way we have invested in the development of an improved product, and now we are being denied the return (excepting the aforementioned premium which, like with all other software we own, we are happy to pay).

Sincerely,

Errikos. 

Herb,

Thanks for listening and interacting, btw.  Your responses, however, are rather misleading and contradictory, as the peoples' reactions to your words have illustrated.

Just because I represent the minority of VSL users doesn't mean that you should discard our eligibility.  It is, in fact, FOR the majority of VI users that you should retain the upgrades to at least the existing products.  Why?  Because the end of the VIP means that THEY ARE NEXT.

So even when you say "All future updates of the Vienna Instruments software will be for free"   ...Oh, sure that's what you say NOW...

Who's gonna believe you?

Not me. Not anymore.

Clark

@cm said:

btw: interesting to read your understanding of the term *patronage* and your expressing of solidarity - it seems you are one of the potential users who are intending to purchase the full super packege and so do not care about future upgrade paths from the smaller libraries to the big collections.

christian

Christian,

I am considering the Special Edition package right now. Ironically, I am not concerned at all about the upgrades from that package. Just over $400 is not a huge commitment on my part to your company. I look at it as testing the waters to see if your libraries work for me. If I like it I would buy more. The guys that have really invested 1000's of dollars in VSL product are the guys that I'm hurting for. They have shown much more commitment and loyalty than anyone buying the SE. I think this is the point that alot of guys are trying to make. Those that helped you the most, floating VSL for the last years,  are being treated unfairly while any new comer (like me) will seemingly be treated better. And no, I don't think I could ever justify the "full super package". I like to eat too! 😉 (but never say never!)

All the very best,

Darren

@Fred Story said:

So...it would appear that this thread has slowly wound to a conclusion without a real explanation - or reconsideration (other than the additional 3 months) - on VSL's part. Oh well. We tried.

I'm choosing to believe that Herb and his team are talking about whether they can rescue the upgrades by running the two systems in parallel, and that they'll get back to us. Unlikely, I know, but they seem like nice people.

In the end I do understand the pressures they must be under. Firstly I don't know of any firm that has managed to provide lifetime upgrades on just one product - and essentially the Vienna library as it was, was just one giant product.

I know many firms that have promised it, but then they always have to wriggle out via some loophole. Steinberg, for instance, manage upgrades for quite a while, but only if you've stayed within two versions of the latest, and then they suddenly announce that you have a few weeks to do so or else buy Cubase over again. Usually, at this point, the price of the collective upgrades between the version they are 'cutting off' and the latest does not total the price of the whole product, so there is definitely a punitive feel to the policy. FruityLoops promised free lifetime upgrades, then realised that they had a limited user-base, all of whom expected their product to be kept compatible with every change of OS, for no further expenditure. Eventually they had to create tiered versions of the software; everyone got to keep their lifetime free upgrades, but, surprise surprise, it turned out that the version they all had was the lowest of the tiered system, and they all had to pay again to have the version with serious funtionality. Then they stopped including their new plug-ins in the sequencer, and made them pay-for extras.  So VSL deserve some kudos for not trying to disguise this turn about.

Having samples as your product makes it even more difficult, because there is no perceived change to the product with each upgrade. Despite the fact that it takes a massive amount of work to keep the player compatible with various OSs, and the programming that goes into improvements in manageability, playability, realism etc, at the end of the day all this expeniture is simply to enable customers to continue to do the same thing they could do before they upgraded. Our perception is that we're not actually getting anything each time we pay again, when in fact there is a huge amount of work gone into making sure that we can still use our samples. Most firms with this kind of situation, (-i.e. only the one product, but massive overheads to keep it functional - ) actually charge annual license fees - not just upgrade fees, but you actually have to pay them or you can't use their software at all.

Also when VSL started out I doubt whether they had any plans for some of their sideways expansions to the product. Back then there was one library - take it or leave it. Due to customer pressure, they have provided a variety of other ways to buy in, and the potential combinations of parts of the whole thing, which any given customer may own, makes the upgrade possibilities mind-boggling.

On the other hand, what is a bit disappointing is that it would seem that this latest move is genuinely not about them hoping to get additional money out of those of us who were part-way through upgrading. It is about money, but not targeting the bit of extra cash they'd get by making us pay full price for the extended VIs. We're just incidental victims of their need to move to other pastures, which feels a little careless. It feels as though, with some effort, possibly a lot of effort, they could have kept us on board. For instance, if a poll were taken, I'm willing to bet that most/all First Edition users would be willing to sign up to an agreement that we will only try upgrading to complete VI collections, and that any individual instruments we buy will be null and void when calculating the upgrade. Stated up front that would preclude us from applying any pressure to make things any more complex. Then they would simply need to maintain a second calculator, label it 'Legacy Upgrades' and let it run - maybe even put a time limit of a couple of years on it.

I realise I'm talking off the top of my head, and I don't know the scale of complexity that's about to hit, but it would certainly be a little sad, given the level of expenditure involved, if they really ditch us because it's too hard to work out.

@Pingu said:

Steinberg, for instance, manage upgrades for quite a while, but only if you've stayed within two versions of the latest, and then they suddenly announce that you have a few weeks to do so or else buy Cubase over again. Usually, at this point, the price of the collective upgrades between the version they are 'cutting off' and the latest does not total the price of the whole product, so there is definitely a punitive feel to the policy.

Congratulations John on that fantastically understated reply!

Well, speaking as somebody who has most of the Horizon series, a couple of Vienna Instruments and bought Pro Edition Strings only a few months ago, I'd like to say a few more things.

Firstly, some of us out here actually don't like the Vienna Instruments interface, and still find serious benefits in running EXS versions in Logic for example- people work in many different ways with this library. I have my own very efficient methods which I much prefer to keyswitching etc. This whole expansion of the library, wonderful as it is, is really totally impractical for many of us professional composers as the hardware to access such massive files is still way behind, and that makes using them time consuming. I simply don't want all the extra articulations right now, until I can buy an off the shelf PC/Mac with 32gig of RAM etc. That doesn't mean I want my upgrade path taken away though! And whilst I understand it can't last forever, some of these products are STILL BEING SOLD - see timespace.com. This July cutoff is seriously too soon.

Secondly, as regards the trust issue, I'm not sure now if I've at least made a smart move in so far as, at least a bunch of wavs of your HD cannot be taken away from you. Any VI on the other hand can eventually become totally useless should you not keep legacy OS's or hosts running. VSL's behaviour on this matter means I trust them significantly less to support Vienna Instruments now too. For me, that means that like any investment, I'll probably spread it more now towards the other libraries such as East West, who also provide great products.

@Conquer said:

Congratulations John on that fantastically understated reply!

Oops ! I'll blame my toddler son for crawling on the return key.....

@johnrowcroft_15446 said:

Secondly, as regards the trust issue, I'm not sure now if I've at least made a smart move in so far as, at least a bunch of wavs of your HD cannot be taken away from you. Any VI on the other hand can eventually become totally useless should you not keep legacy OS's or hosts running. VSL's behaviour on this matter means I trust them significantly less to support Vienna Instruments now too.

After this, those are my thoughts too. I will definitely be keeping my Pro-Library discs around in case things go belly-up at some point. So far Gigastudio has always given backwards compatibility, so if the VIs do become useless I wouldn't be forced into another upgrade.

RE: EXS versions vs. VI

Whether we like the EXS versions better is totally beside the point.  I said on the first page of this thread that I liked the EXS version and it worked great. However, I am going to have to upgrade my system at SOME point, and not just because I still have Logic 8 still in the box.  Other software that I own will have to upgrade to accomodate new hardware like my camera, etc.

Plus there are lots of advantages to the VI player.

EDIT:  I see what you're saying now, John.  Sorry, don't mean to disagree with you.

Well, I'm going to have to get very cozy with Kontakt now, porting over the FE perf stuff, etc. so I can upgrade my OS and DAW without losing my "lifetime investment..."

Clark

@Enlighten said:

And does the fact that there are more VI users than sample library users justify the fact that the upgrade paths of the sample library users should be wiped out if they don't shell out thousands of dollars in the next 3-6 months?

am i supposed to answer to someone who does neither provide his real name nor address information, but just a throw-away email address, does not have any products registered and 2 posts?

enlighten me please, christian

@clarkcontrol said:

Well, I'm going to have to get very cozy with Kontakt now, porting over the FE perf stuff, etc. so I can upgrade my OS and DAW without losing my "lifetime investment..."

Clark

Same here.

Good luck porting the 1st Edition Performance Set to Kontakt.

I tried to get them to sell me the K2 version but "it's an obsolete product." 

They just don't give a s***

A suggestion.... 

Since VSL is opting out of their committment on the upgrade discounts for certain obsolete products, maybe it's reasonable for the users to request that they be allowed to sell their license for any affected products.

I would like to recomend vsl not discontinue the VIP upgrade path.  Doing so could bring a costly class action lawsuit and that isn't good for anyone, including those who have upgraded already.    

At the very least, do not change up policies so that the customers end up in a less secure position. We have all believed in you in the past, and some of us will keep believing in you despite the errors you make.

It has been said again and again, this is such a breach of your "promises" to us, your customers. As we all know this isn't the first time the VIP policy has been up for debate. There are countless threads on this forum, especially regarding the pricing at the release of the Symphonic Cube. Here is one of  many: "http://community.vsl.co.at/forums/t/16514.aspx?PageIndex=3"

As you might know not many of those threads are filled with positive content. Then, as now, the issue evolved around first generation customers feeling that they ended up having less priority with the VSL company. Although I feel for the people who got upset back then, I still could understand VSL's reasons to change the game. This time I do not.

Back then the VSL crew was infinetly more involved in the discussions, and over time the whole thing blew over. The customers  e v e n t u a l l y  calmed down, and in the end, still recived their promised VIP discounts.

It seems VSL took care of that piece of knowledge...this time around they have not been much publicly involved in the matter. Few, if any, explanations has come forth. And it really does not seem to be a middle way here, as VSL won't even budge the sligthest.

As I have the greatest of respects for the whole of the VSL company, it is sad to see you take a turn like this. It seems you now know that you can change the "rules" at any time, and just move on. If this was a matter of survival for the company I would understand. But clearly it is not. It seems to be a matter of inconviniece for VSL. This even knowing what consequences it will have  for (yeah I know...some of) your customers. Sad. Truly sad.

A closing comment. Reading an old VIP pricing issue thread (http://community.vsl.co.at/forums/t/16515.aspx), I stumbled upon this statement, from Herb himself:

@herb said:

(...) If you have Pro Edition and all upgrade related Horizon products you get 54% discount to upgrade to the Symphic Cube. (you pay 4220 Euro instead of 9200 Euro).

These upgrade (VIP) prices to the SC don't have a time limitation.
So if you buy Pro Edition now you pay 3400 Euro.
If you upgrade any time later to the SC you get a discount of 3790 Euro. 

best
Herb

So there you have it...

Kind regards

Tom-Erlend Malm

I only have one of the original Horizon products so the dropping of the VIP program doesn't effect me much.  I was planning on upgrading to the SE plus in the next couple months but after seeing this thread I've decided not to support VSL in the future.  They have lost my trust.  Instead the money will go to some other newer developers like Westgate.

Jim