@Fred Story said:

So...it would appear that this thread has slowly wound to a conclusion without a real explanation - or reconsideration (other than the additional 3 months) - on VSL's part. Oh well. We tried.

I'm choosing to believe that Herb and his team are talking about whether they can rescue the upgrades by running the two systems in parallel, and that they'll get back to us. Unlikely, I know, but they seem like nice people.

In the end I do understand the pressures they must be under. Firstly I don't know of any firm that has managed to provide lifetime upgrades on just one product - and essentially the Vienna library as it was, was just one giant product.

I know many firms that have promised it, but then they always have to wriggle out via some loophole. Steinberg, for instance, manage upgrades for quite a while, but only if you've stayed within two versions of the latest, and then they suddenly announce that you have a few weeks to do so or else buy Cubase over again. Usually, at this point, the price of the collective upgrades between the version they are 'cutting off' and the latest does not total the price of the whole product, so there is definitely a punitive feel to the policy. FruityLoops promised free lifetime upgrades, then realised that they had a limited user-base, all of whom expected their product to be kept compatible with every change of OS, for no further expenditure. Eventually they had to create tiered versions of the software; everyone got to keep their lifetime free upgrades, but, surprise surprise, it turned out that the version they all had was the lowest of the tiered system, and they all had to pay again to have the version with serious funtionality. Then they stopped including their new plug-ins in the sequencer, and made them pay-for extras.  So VSL deserve some kudos for not trying to disguise this turn about.

Having samples as your product makes it even more difficult, because there is no perceived change to the product with each upgrade. Despite the fact that it takes a massive amount of work to keep the player compatible with various OSs, and the programming that goes into improvements in manageability, playability, realism etc, at the end of the day all this expeniture is simply to enable customers to continue to do the same thing they could do before they upgraded. Our perception is that we're not actually getting anything each time we pay again, when in fact there is a huge amount of work gone into making sure that we can still use our samples. Most firms with this kind of situation, (-i.e. only the one product, but massive overheads to keep it functional - ) actually charge annual license fees - not just upgrade fees, but you actually have to pay them or you can't use their software at all.

Also when VSL started out I doubt whether they had any plans for some of their sideways expansions to the product. Back then there was one library - take it or leave it. Due to customer pressure, they have provided a variety of other ways to buy in, and the potential combinations of parts of the whole thing, which any given customer may own, makes the upgrade possibilities mind-boggling.

On the other hand, what is a bit disappointing is that it would seem that this latest move is genuinely not about them hoping to get additional money out of those of us who were part-way through upgrading. It is about money, but not targeting the bit of extra cash they'd get by making us pay full price for the extended VIs. We're just incidental victims of their need to move to other pastures, which feels a little careless. It feels as though, with some effort, possibly a lot of effort, they could have kept us on board. For instance, if a poll were taken, I'm willing to bet that most/all First Edition users would be willing to sign up to an agreement that we will only try upgrading to complete VI collections, and that any individual instruments we buy will be null and void when calculating the upgrade. Stated up front that would preclude us from applying any pressure to make things any more complex. Then they would simply need to maintain a second calculator, label it 'Legacy Upgrades' and let it run - maybe even put a time limit of a couple of years on it.

I realise I'm talking off the top of my head, and I don't know the scale of complexity that's about to hit, but it would certainly be a little sad, given the level of expenditure involved, if they really ditch us because it's too hard to work out.

@Pingu said:

Steinberg, for instance, manage upgrades for quite a while, but only if you've stayed within two versions of the latest, and then they suddenly announce that you have a few weeks to do so or else buy Cubase over again. Usually, at this point, the price of the collective upgrades between the version they are 'cutting off' and the latest does not total the price of the whole product, so there is definitely a punitive feel to the policy.

Congratulations John on that fantastically understated reply!

Well, speaking as somebody who has most of the Horizon series, a couple of Vienna Instruments and bought Pro Edition Strings only a few months ago, I'd like to say a few more things.

Firstly, some of us out here actually don't like the Vienna Instruments interface, and still find serious benefits in running EXS versions in Logic for example- people work in many different ways with this library. I have my own very efficient methods which I much prefer to keyswitching etc. This whole expansion of the library, wonderful as it is, is really totally impractical for many of us professional composers as the hardware to access such massive files is still way behind, and that makes using them time consuming. I simply don't want all the extra articulations right now, until I can buy an off the shelf PC/Mac with 32gig of RAM etc. That doesn't mean I want my upgrade path taken away though! And whilst I understand it can't last forever, some of these products are STILL BEING SOLD - see timespace.com. This July cutoff is seriously too soon.

Secondly, as regards the trust issue, I'm not sure now if I've at least made a smart move in so far as, at least a bunch of wavs of your HD cannot be taken away from you. Any VI on the other hand can eventually become totally useless should you not keep legacy OS's or hosts running. VSL's behaviour on this matter means I trust them significantly less to support Vienna Instruments now too. For me, that means that like any investment, I'll probably spread it more now towards the other libraries such as East West, who also provide great products.

@Conquer said:

Congratulations John on that fantastically understated reply!

Oops ! I'll blame my toddler son for crawling on the return key.....

@johnrowcroft_15446 said:

Secondly, as regards the trust issue, I'm not sure now if I've at least made a smart move in so far as, at least a bunch of wavs of your HD cannot be taken away from you. Any VI on the other hand can eventually become totally useless should you not keep legacy OS's or hosts running. VSL's behaviour on this matter means I trust them significantly less to support Vienna Instruments now too.

After this, those are my thoughts too. I will definitely be keeping my Pro-Library discs around in case things go belly-up at some point. So far Gigastudio has always given backwards compatibility, so if the VIs do become useless I wouldn't be forced into another upgrade.

RE: EXS versions vs. VI

Whether we like the EXS versions better is totally beside the point.  I said on the first page of this thread that I liked the EXS version and it worked great. However, I am going to have to upgrade my system at SOME point, and not just because I still have Logic 8 still in the box.  Other software that I own will have to upgrade to accomodate new hardware like my camera, etc.

Plus there are lots of advantages to the VI player.

EDIT:  I see what you're saying now, John.  Sorry, don't mean to disagree with you.

Well, I'm going to have to get very cozy with Kontakt now, porting over the FE perf stuff, etc. so I can upgrade my OS and DAW without losing my "lifetime investment..."

Clark

@Enlighten said:

And does the fact that there are more VI users than sample library users justify the fact that the upgrade paths of the sample library users should be wiped out if they don't shell out thousands of dollars in the next 3-6 months?

am i supposed to answer to someone who does neither provide his real name nor address information, but just a throw-away email address, does not have any products registered and 2 posts?

enlighten me please, christian

@clarkcontrol said:

Well, I'm going to have to get very cozy with Kontakt now, porting over the FE perf stuff, etc. so I can upgrade my OS and DAW without losing my "lifetime investment..."

Clark

Same here.

Good luck porting the 1st Edition Performance Set to Kontakt.

I tried to get them to sell me the K2 version but "it's an obsolete product." 

They just don't give a s***

A suggestion.... 

Since VSL is opting out of their committment on the upgrade discounts for certain obsolete products, maybe it's reasonable for the users to request that they be allowed to sell their license for any affected products.

I would like to recomend vsl not discontinue the VIP upgrade path.  Doing so could bring a costly class action lawsuit and that isn't good for anyone, including those who have upgraded already.    

At the very least, do not change up policies so that the customers end up in a less secure position. We have all believed in you in the past, and some of us will keep believing in you despite the errors you make.

It has been said again and again, this is such a breach of your "promises" to us, your customers. As we all know this isn't the first time the VIP policy has been up for debate. There are countless threads on this forum, especially regarding the pricing at the release of the Symphonic Cube. Here is one of  many: "http://community.vsl.co.at/forums/t/16514.aspx?PageIndex=3"

As you might know not many of those threads are filled with positive content. Then, as now, the issue evolved around first generation customers feeling that they ended up having less priority with the VSL company. Although I feel for the people who got upset back then, I still could understand VSL's reasons to change the game. This time I do not.

Back then the VSL crew was infinetly more involved in the discussions, and over time the whole thing blew over. The customers  e v e n t u a l l y  calmed down, and in the end, still recived their promised VIP discounts.

It seems VSL took care of that piece of knowledge...this time around they have not been much publicly involved in the matter. Few, if any, explanations has come forth. And it really does not seem to be a middle way here, as VSL won't even budge the sligthest.

As I have the greatest of respects for the whole of the VSL company, it is sad to see you take a turn like this. It seems you now know that you can change the "rules" at any time, and just move on. If this was a matter of survival for the company I would understand. But clearly it is not. It seems to be a matter of inconviniece for VSL. This even knowing what consequences it will have  for (yeah I know...some of) your customers. Sad. Truly sad.

A closing comment. Reading an old VIP pricing issue thread (http://community.vsl.co.at/forums/t/16515.aspx), I stumbled upon this statement, from Herb himself:

@herb said:

(...) If you have Pro Edition and all upgrade related Horizon products you get 54% discount to upgrade to the Symphic Cube. (you pay 4220 Euro instead of 9200 Euro).

These upgrade (VIP) prices to the SC don't have a time limitation.
So if you buy Pro Edition now you pay 3400 Euro.
If you upgrade any time later to the SC you get a discount of 3790 Euro. 

best
Herb

So there you have it...

Kind regards

Tom-Erlend Malm

I only have one of the original Horizon products so the dropping of the VIP program doesn't effect me much.  I was planning on upgrading to the SE plus in the next couple months but after seeing this thread I've decided not to support VSL in the future.  They have lost my trust.  Instead the money will go to some other newer developers like Westgate.

Jim

OK, a lot of things were unforseeable in November 2005.

I didn't know for example that we will discontinue Pro Edition and Horizon Sample Libaries,

and didn't know that we will offer smaller editions and download based editions.

We have to change a lot of things, and now we'll have to change the old upgrade pathes,

offering much more discount than the historic costs of a Pro Edition in November 2005 till July 15th.

By the way VSL is doing well but is not "rich". The last 7 years we've invested every cent in sample and software developement.

Also there is no product line in developement which should remove the existing one.

We have recording schedules for another 5 years to enhance the existing products,

so hopefully we will release a lot of new instruments in the future.

best

Herb

 As an aside, on November 29, 2005 Bruce wrote the following:

@Bruce said:

Here is my solution after much consideration:<br><br>Take that 5,000 dollars and invest in Apple stock. Wait for it to double again-sell at 10,000. Then buy the VI. (that might take a year) Take the remaining 5k and buy oil futures. Wait for that to double and then buy the complete package<br><br>Herb will just have to wait....  awhile to get my cash.<br><br>Then again-if the initial VI upgrade was more in the realm of reason I would have ordered this week.<br><br>And yah- I would rather be composing than watching the stock market. But I can get by with the tools that i already own and paid hard earned cash for.

Had one followed Bruce's advice, but decided to sell today the value of the two $5000 investments (using the IXC ETF as a proxy for oil) the total current value would be $19957.00 meaning a, before tax profit of 99.57%. Almost enough to purchase the full version of the Cube. Had you bought oil futures contracts and traded them continuusly (instead of using the IXC ETF) your original $5000 investment would now be worth $12296 making the total value $24,560.00 - the profits being enough for the Cube and the full Appassionata Strings I & II.

In other words, Bruce gave sound investment advice to forum participants!!

@Errikos said:

Can you please explain what you just said about improving the upgrade paths with more discount since back then?

The Pro Edition was offered for 3400 € in Nov 2005.

If you upgrade to Symphonic Cube now you get a discount of 3790 € for a registered Pro Edition,

plus 2 free extended libaries, 595 € (chamber strings) and 330 € (woodwinds I) for example.

So all in all:  4715 € discount if you upgrade till July 15th.