Legato Problem & Question

[ski]

Just got the Vienna Special Edition. First, the problem...

Playing intervals using bassoon (BA legato sus patch) using normal legato keyboard technique doesn't result in a realistic sound: the attack of each new note played has a little portamento-like "glitch". Sure, sometimes this effect would be highly desirable, but certainly not with every note transition. Anyway, I noticed that it's possible avoid these glitches (sometimes, but not always) if notes are played detached and with sustain pedal. For me this is a counterintuitive approach for playing this and other legato/sustained sounds. I'm working in Logic, and having to use sustain pedal further implies that a bassoon part, per this example, would have sustain pedal markings which could not be deleted in order for my score to look and sound correct. I'd have to create a score-only version where I removed the sustain pedal markings.

BTW, the behavior I've described is with "play release" switched off.

There's no explanation in the accompanying manual or .pdf that explains the 'mechanics' of these legato programs, so maybe I'm missing something. But I'd really appreciate an explanation of how they're intended to work, and what the most effective technique is for using them.

So that's the first thing... Here's the second thing...

When playing other libraries in Logic using EXS-24 (strings, for example) I've developed a technique for creating realistic-sounding legato lines by using a controller to change "sample start time". What this does: a controller moves the sample start point slightly past the attack portion (sometimes completely past the attack and into the sustained portion) so that subsequent notes don't re-articulate the full attack. This technique seeks to duplicate how a real violin, for example, would be heard to play legato line --- the attack would be heard on the first note and subsequent notes would simply change in pitch (more or less) Same with clarinet, bassoon, oboe, etc. There are other fine points to this technique, but that's the main gist. I'm wondering if there's any way to program (or script) the VI player to allow me to do something like this. OR, is there a technique about using VI that I'm not aware of that would give me this kind of realism?

[herb]

Hi Peter,

here we have a demo using the performance legato patches of the basson extensively.

The tutorial download also includes a midifile and Vienna Instrument Preset file.

Maybe this is helpful for you.

http://vsl.co.at/Player2.aspx?Lang=1&DemoID=4654

best

herb

[ski]

Thanks Herb. What I heard is precisely the kind of articulation I'm after. So I've just DL'd the demo & file you kindly pointed me to. I'll take it apart and see how it works.

Best, Peter

[Dietz]

@Peter Schwartz said:

[...] When playing other libraries in Logic using EXS-24 (strings, for example) I've developed a technique for creating realistic-sounding legato lines by using a controller to change "sample start time". What this does: a controller moves the sample start point slightly past the attack portion (sometimes completely past the attack and into the sustained portion) so that subsequent notes don't re-articulate the full attack. This technique seeks to duplicate how a real violin, for example, would be heard to play legato line --- the attack would be heard on the first note and subsequent notes would simply change in pitch (more or less) Same with clarinet, bassoon, oboe, etc. There are other fine points to this technique, but that's the main gist. I'm wondering if there's any way to program (or script) the VI player to allow me to do something like this. OR, is there a technique about using VI that I'm not aware of that would give me this kind of realism?

Welcome Peter,

I know exactly what you're talking about - I was using similar techniques in earlier days, too.

Exactly the need for artificial solutions like that lead us to the development of our unique sampled legato performances. What you can hear from all Vienna Instruments nowadays are _real_ Legati, as performed by the musicians in our SilentStage. Undergoing a complex and highly developed editing process, you are able to combine these recordings in real time on behalf of the detection algorithms offered by our very specialised sample player.

For our ears, this is the more convincing method to overcome the limitations of old-school-sampling. 😊

HTH,

/Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library

[ski]

Hi Herb and Dietz,

Again, thanks for your help. At the risk of being a pain in the (b)ass(oon)...

I downloaded the files per the link Herb pointed me to. Unfortunately the notes in the .mid file don't match those of the associated .mp3. It's a different piece of music. Also, there is an .fxb file in there and, well, I have no idea where to put it. I did get the AUpreset to load but it produced no sound (probably having to do what that .fxb file, eh?). But still, I see that some of the patches called for are trills and other articulations that didn't come with the library I have (which is the VI Special Edition).

I really appreciate your help, but at this point what I think might help me the most is a simple description of how the legato patches should be actually played (with or without controllers) to make this feature work.

One final lil' bit of trouble... when playing both the BA Legato and BA Legato/Sus patches with the sustain pedal (to see if it would have any effect on whether or not it had an effect on the legato function), I was able to get two, sometimes three voices to play from these patches (which I thought were monophonic)?

Normally I eat this kind of stuff for breakfast, but I'm totally stumped... Any additional help you can provide would be most appreciated!

Peter

[DG]

@Peter Schwartz said:

Peter, it would be really helpful if you could post an audio file and MIDI file, together with the .fxb, or patch name, that exhibits this strange behaviour, so that we can find out where the problem occurs.

[quote=Peter Schwartz]One final lil' bit of trouble... when playing both the BA Legato and BA Legato/Sus patches with the sustain pedal (to see if it would have any effect on whether or not it had an effect on the legato function), I was able to get two, sometimes three voices to play from these patches (which I thought were monophonic)?

Peter

The sustain pedal can cause this effect, which is why you have to be careful when using sustain with a legato instrument.

DG

[ski]

Hi DG,

Thank you very much for your reply. I'll gladly post files, but first I'd like to understand what the correct behavior is. I want to rule out my expectations versus the way this function is supposed to operate. Below is an example of the behavior I'm seeing. Please tell me if any aspects of it seem wrong to you...

(my reference for middle C = C4)

[b]14S TrC legato[/b] [i]patch[/i] (loaded into blank matrix)

1a) Play & hold any single note. It will play (loop) indefinitely

1b) Play a note and hold it with sustain pedal. It will loop indefinitely

2a) Play C#4. While holding it, play C#5. You will hear a little bit of "lip" attack on the C#5. This note will sound for a short time and then stop according to the natural performance -- [u]no looping[/u]

2b) Play & hold C#4. Press the sustain pedal and release C#4. It will continue to loop indefinitely. Now play C#5. You will [u]not[/u] hear the "lip" attack on the C#5, and as long as the pedal is pressed the note will sustain indefinitely

My expectation is that the sound heard in step 2B (no attack on the second note, C#5) is what I'd hear by playing as described in step 2A without using sustain pedal. Having said that, can you confirm that all of what I've described is normal behavior for this patch?

Many thanks,

Peter

EDIT: I'd like to add that what I described in step 2A (C#5 not looping) isn't what I expected. Is that normal?

[DG]

2A and 2B cannot sound the same. 2A uses a start sample and a legato sample; 2B uses two start samples. The is actually the method I use to simulate bowing or legato tonguing.

2A is normal for some instruments, but not all. If you need a looped note, you need to cell xFade immediately after the legato transition to a sustain sample.

DG

[herb]

@DG said:

If you need a looped note, you need to cell xFade immediately after the legato transition to a sustain sample.

The legato-sus patches (which are placed in the ressource folder for most of the wind instruments) are offering prepared patches, where the interval samples crossfades automatically to the looped sustains.

I recommend to use these patches only for legato movements with long notes.

If the regular legato patch is long enough the results are sonically better using the regular legato patches.

best

Herb

[ski]

Thank you DG and Herb for your replies. I will reply in more detail shortly, but meanwhile I wanted you to know that I really appreciate your taking time to help me understand this situation. Best, Peter

[ski]

Dietz, Herb, and DG, again, thanks for your replies.

I've read and re-read Herb and DG's suggestion and explanations, and I've put them into practice on the score I'm currently realizing. I must say, though, that I find the whole "mechanism" for creating legato performances completely counter-intuitive --- particularly the notion that you cannot use legato keyboard technique to produce a legato performance! (Legato, to me, does not include the constant sound of "blips" at the attack of each note except under special circumstances. See below).

In short, my expectations have been dashed. I expected that playing with legato keyboard technique would produce exactly what I hear playing detached notes with sustain pedal (my "2B" above). This is a totally counter-intuitive approach to creating a legato-sounding part. And the idea that I need to switch to a legato-sustain patch to sustain a note? I understand the technique and I appreciate the suggestion. But I must say I don't like the technique at all.

My "2B" method works fine for playing simple legato passages (though it feels wrong to play detached to hear legato), but this method fails marvelously if I want to play certain kinds of basic fast legato passages. For example, using the Bb Clarinet legato patch, play a fast up & down A minor arpeggio -- A3, C4, E4, A4 -- using my 2B method (pressing the sustain pedal after the first note and playing fast detached). Repeating those notes with the sustain pedal down sometimes causes voices to pile up on individual notes. There are additional problems that occur when playing this from the Bb matrix patch, using a controller to switch to a sustained voice. I won't go into details now as this is already becoming a lengthy post.

Now... playing that same arpeggio on the legato patch using legato keyboard technique (no sustain pedal) produces a "watery" sound of "blippy", portamento-ish attacks that are absolutely charming for polkas, Klezmer, even occasionally passages in "serious" classical music. But an accomplished clarinetist playing "serious" music would strive [i]not[/i] to sound so watery when playing legato, even if the passages were fast and difficult. Sure, playing fast passages and hearing those "blips" implies that a passage is difficult to play. So in many cases the "blips" are more of a "special effect" than something which wants to be heard all the time.

Dietz, I appreciate the tremendous effort that went into the development of the legato patches. I would respectfully suggest that now it's time to devise an algorithm that will allow for normal [u]legato[/u] playing technique that would create the effect I described in "2B", with the sustain pedal used to indicate that subsequent notes are to be played from the sustain portion of the sample, not the "blips" of the attacks of the legato samples. And further to that idea, the "blippy" intervals should available as a performance option that can be switched on/off as desired. Like I said, it's a good special effect.

Anyway, I'm sure that's enough from me by now...

[DG]

Peter, I still think that you are not quite understanding the legato function. The whole point is that you do play them legato, in the same way as you do on a keyboard. The fact that you can't do the same when using the sustain pedal is a huge plus, not a minus. It is the only way to force a start note, whilst playing legato. May I also respectfully suggest that using the sustain pedal is not a normal legato technique; it is a sustain technique that is often used because of bad keyboard skills. Not saying anything about yours though.[;)]

I still suggest that you post a MIDI file containing those "blips". I only get those when the legato note runs out, and often in these cases (such as with solo strings) the transition material heard with the legato would be totally inappropriate, as a bow is only a certain length and would need to change anyway. I agree that if all legato notes were looped it would make things easier, but it very rarely causes me problems.

However, if you find that you hear too much transition material between notes, then just raise the release time, so that it is partially obscured.

DG

[herb]

It's a little difficult to understand your problem without any audio reference.

I just can post another example, this time the clarinet also using extensively performance legato patches.

http://vsl.co.at/Player2.aspx?Lang=1&DemoID=4650  

All this solo instrument demos were performed live on a keyboard without any editing.

You are right that there are differences between a slow and a fast legato movement,

that's why we offer normal and fast legato performances (and also the performance trill patches, which also work very well for fast legato performances)

Also our speed controller helps to automate the switch between slow and fast passages

Just another few things which are important to know:

- perf-legato patches are monophonic,

- you have to perform legato (there shouldn't be breaks between the notes)

- it could be tricky if you perform a legato line changing from piano to forte (during legato)

here the transition between the notes gets obvious

In this case it is better to activate velocity crossfade, and make a fast crossfade change from low to high.

best

Herb

[Dietz]

A question to Peter, just to make sure (as I saw him posting a similar topic in another forum, too) : We are talking about the Vienna Instruments, _not_ the legacy Horizon Series products of the Vienna Symphonic Library, which have to rely on EXS24, GigaStudio, etc. - is this correct?

/Dietz

[ski]

...see next post...

[mahag]

Yes, Peter, if I may jump in. I hear what you are calling the "blip" although it's very subtle. In the clarinet example I think it's just the subtle mechanics of the instrument being heard, the slapping shut of a pad, etc, etc. I'm quite sure it's only audible in the starkest of situations (solo and little reverb maybe) and because you've become accustomed to hearing that ultra smooth legato, though not as realistic, these "blips" are catching your ultra sensitive ears.  I've noticed it once or twice before also, but in the context of a musical piece it always sounds great.

[ski]

Aha! In the score I'm working on now there was a small clarinet part, all of 4 notes, and this demonstrates "the problem" perfectly.

First, an .mp3:

http://www.score2picture.com/vsl/clarinet.mp3

What you'll hear are four notes played legato, no pedal, just some modwheel--->velocity x-fade to shape the phrase

For anyone interested, below is a link to a .mid file of the part (the part happens around measure 24). Someone above requested an .fxp file. Sorry, but I have no idea what that is... I saved a .matrix file of my custom programming on the stock Bb clarinet, don't know if that would help. But you should be able to use the stock Bb Clarinet that comes with VI Special Edition, activate the legato keyswitch, and get the same results.

http://www.score2picture.com/vsl/clarinet.mid

Now, here's my commentary about what I'm hearing in the above .mp3 (all pitches concert):

1. D to A
If this were played on a real clarinet you would have to 'cross the register break'. Clarinetists work very hard to play across the break smoothly and with even tone. I'm sure you guys know this. And as an amateur clarinetist myself I know the difficulty. But if we're going for a professional sound here, there should be no "bump" between these notes. But indeed you'll hear it in this legato patch!

2. A to B
Now that the break has been crossed, playing these two notes on a real clarinet should produce very little if any break in the tone. Heck, even I can play those notes legato and seamlessly on my plastic Bundy with a worn-out reed. But here we hear a "bump". It sounds almost tongued. So for me, going from A to B is not a legato sound. It's smooth, but it's not legato.

3. B to A
The little bump between notes is OK for me. It's not objectionable, and adds realism.

But back to my main point --- playing the simplest of lines (no wide leaps) using standard legato keyboard technique results in "bumps" between notes in legato patches. Clarinet. Bassoon. Trumpet. Flute, and so on. It's just not the sound I expect when I think of legato.

Anyway, it's super late now so I'm going to sign off for now.

[strytten]

Peter's questions capture the sort of questions I've been accumulating as I've been working my way up the learning curve. I've done the video tutorials, and I visit the user area (but there are so many postings, it is time consuming to find relevant postings even with the search feature). I am using the velocity xfade feature. It would be really helpful for newbies like me if others could post any techniques they're willing to share to get more realistic legatos (or other types of sounds). Thanks! Steve Trytten, Pasadena, CA

[ski]

I'm finding it extremely difficult to play simple legato lines with just about any legato patch/matrix I call up. Regardless of how much custom programming I do (or x-fading to sustain samples, as Herb suggested above) I'm finding something inherently problematic in the way the legato function is implemented. It might have to do with the samples themselves, or how their attacks have been trimmed (or not). To achieve legato with a consistent sound isn't intuitive. But in so many cases there is a pronounced attack on legato samples.

I'm working with the stock french horn right now. With the legato samples selected (low D#), play middle C up to middle G (legato of course). The C has a nice attack quality, but then when you play the G you'll hear an attack on the G! That's not legato! Maybe it's a kind of tongued legato, but it's not legato as I would normally associate the term with the sound. (There's also a lousy pitch bend on that G, but that's another matter).

Now, try it a different way. Same notes, but before you play the G, hit the low C# to access the sustain samples (not the legato-sustain). Now, [i]that's[/i] the sound I'm after. That's the sound that a skilled player would be able to achieve. But the legato patch by itself doesn't provide that kind of sound.

Above, mahag suggested that maybe my ears were sensitive and that I'm picking up on these kinds of anomalies. I respectfully disagree. It's not a matter of my ears being sensitive, or even over-sensitive. It's a matter of knowing what the real instruments sound like and my not hearing that.

So what kind of sound do I associate with the term "legato"? Well, it's not "tongued legato". I'll give two examples of what legato means to me:

1. VIOLIN: When playing a legato line on one bow stroke (and on one string), the player essentially does what a guitar player does -- they either hammer on, lift off, or slide to change pitches. On a single bow there would be little re-attacking of new notes, if any. The pitch wouldn't change as though someone flipped a switch, but it would be pretty close to that.

2. CLARINET (again): On a single breath, and without re-tonguing notes, the clarinetist puts fingers down or lifts fingers up to change pitch. Sometimes the pads will not lift or close quickly enough, and sometimes a finger won't be placed or lifted on an open hole quickly enough. In those cases it will produce a bit of a "re-attack blip" on the sound. But played by a skilled clarinetist -- the kind of thing I'm trying to simulate -- you wouldn't hear too may of those "blips".

So that's the kind of sound I expected from "legato". I think the implementation of VSL's legato is brilliant in concept. And sometimes those little blips/re-attacks sound totally convincing. But for the purpose of creating simple fingered legato lines (on a single breath or single bow, depending on the instrument), it's a difficult task at best. What's worse is that there's no consistency within the respective instruments. Some connected notes sound smooth, some don't.

So as I said earlier, this whole thing may be a matter of what I expected "legato" to sound like using this library versus what it actually [i]does[/i] sound like. But at the same time I don't think my expectation is too off-the-mark. Yes, I'm disappointed, and IMHO I see lots of room for improvement here. But I'll add that overall I'm not disappointed with having bought into VSL. It's serving me well all the same.

[brian_30027]

Just to chime in belatedly, having seen this thread for the first time...

I'm in agreement with what Peter Schwarz has argued.  As a clarinetist with professional-level training and with some years of experience playing in orchestra from my university days, I know a little something about how the instruments should sound. The VSL legato instruments (at least in the Special Edition, which I have) do not always acheive a normal, natural-sounding result (clarinet incidentally being among the worst IMO, but then some other instruments sound quite good).  This has been one of the few disappointments I've had with VSL (but a serious one). When the transitions don't work well, the effect is  like hearing amateur players with bobbling, ill-coordinated fingers.  I hope that this can be improved and fine-tuned in a future update, because I've often had to expend quite a bit of extra effort, using techiques similar to Peter's, in order to work around the problems when they are bad enough to interfere audibly with the whole mix.  Additionally, two other problems I have had with the legato instruments is the lack of strict playing response (i.e., the legato transitions still activate when there is a small gap between the midi notes, making it difficult to simulate tenuto- or legato- tonguing) as well as the difficulty in getting a clean, firm attack on the first note of a phrase with some of the winds.