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  4. Beethoven and Borodin string quartets - masterful arrangements by Jay Bacal
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    @JBacal said:

    jbm-- I agree that the Beethoven is more successful than the Borodin although I am quite fond of several passages including the last 1:30 of the piece.  I think this is because there are fewer places to hide in the Borodin due to its exposed lyrical nature. Also the Beethoven was written by...well...Beethoven. The guy knew what he was doing. For the Beethoven, I used almost all of the faster performance articulations including detache, spiccato, marcato, and harsh. I also used the performance repetition articulations extensively.


    Yes, the lyricism is very tough to deal with, I agree. But I'm curious how many performance instruments you used in the Borodin? I'm pretty convinced that these should be used wherever possible, as they just contain so much more sonic information - all of those little things that you don't notice on a "one-shot" playback. For example, if I audition the different articulations, for short notes, and so on, I will generally 'prefer' the short note samples (for example) to their performance rep equivalents. However, when it comes time to hear these in the actual setting, I think the performance ones win every time, even if they don't sound as 'good' in isolation. Am I making sense? So, I guess I'm curious whether the percentage of performance articulations used in the Borodin was as high as in the Beethoven.

    Of course, you also mention the first impression that popped into my head: "well, it's Beethoven!" 😉

    J.
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    Both sublime. Thanks.
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    @JBacal said:

    Thanks musos, Beat, julian, jbm, Guy, mplaster, Christof and Paul for listening and posting your reactions.

    julian-- I think the Beethoven took me roughly 7 long days.

     

     

    Best,

    Jay

    Thanks for the info Jay. This does rather raise a catch 22 situation. Your rendition of the Beethoven is of such a high standard, along with the VSL library used to create it that it would be perfectly usable in a large number of professional situations. However, and here's the rub, if you value your time and skills realistically, 7 long days would surely equate to the session fees for a suitably skilled string quartet and the recording equipment (studio fee) required to create a real performance.

    ...Which is a good thing and a bad thing - good in that it still protects the ability of real musicians to earn a livelyhood and bad in that despite the  great advances in the VI software it takes someone of Jay's skill to extract the absolute best and then at a time penalty that probably makes  it uneconomical at the professional level.

    Still congratulations Jay, receiving the plaudits from fellow users is at least recognition of your skill and time spent!

    regards

    Julian 
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    Although Jay will respond himself, I'll add one defense to that "little bug". I have the impression that if Jay would of done this a year ago it would of taken him 2-4 weeks, now it's 7 long days, and with more practice in this specific craft it will keep diminishing, once you know how to phrase some passages they tend to eventually show up again the same way and you start to have the option of using the same presets, you also know your lib more than ever, so everything goes faster. If I assume wrong Jay, I'll be quiet!
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    Hi Julian-- I am slow and obsessive! A more sane person could probably get comparable results with VSL in about 3-4 days. Guy could probably do it in a single afternoon! There is no doubt that a busy professional musician could get faster and perhaps better results by hiring 4 top-notch string players and a state-of-the-art recording facility. But this assumes you have the cash to hand over to all these people and that the string players already know the piece very well or are willing to learn and rehearse it for free. Fortunately (or is that unfortunately?), I am neither busy nor professional so I actually enjoyed the time spent working on these. [:D]

    Best, Jay
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    @julian said:

    This does rather raise a catch 22 situation. However, and here's the rub, if you value your time and skills realistically, 7 long days would surely equate to the session fees for a suitably skilled string quartet and the recording equipment (studio fee) required to create a real performance.

     

    ...Which is a good thing and a bad thing - good in that it still protects the ability of real musicians to earn a livelyhood and bad in that despite the  great advances in the VI software it takes someone of Jay's skill to extract the absolute best and then at a time penalty that probably makes  it uneconomical at the professional level.
    That's well observed Julian. You could start a whole debate on this subject alone based on this one rendition of the Beethoven.-------7 days to do the Beethoven may seem long - I would think it took Beethoven a little longer to write it ---- but if you were doing renditions in the modern world for say, film or tv score writers that were not so good at making their own renditions with sample libraries---this Beethoven is a pretty good calling card. Most music written for film or tv I would suggest, is not quite as good as the Beethoven quartet writing, therefore may take a lesser time to do with samples ( although I realize there is no set in stone formula for time versus a musical piece). ---------Another interesting point - where are you going to get a string quartet (at the drop of a hat) that are going to play like that? There are many great quartets to be sure - but finding them and booking them and then paying for that kind of quality is another issue.----You can take this further - getting a full orchestra to play. There's still the issue of the sound though - if the sound gets to the point whereby 'musicians' ( I use that word loosely) cannot tell the difference - then it becomes a very different world.
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    The Borodin shows how doing the simplest performance is the hardest.  I tried doing a childishly simple-to-play (in MIDI) performance of a violin solo, and it was impossible.  That is probably because of the infinity of things that players do when playing something very slow and espressivo.  This performance however is better than any other I have heard using samples on an espressivo string piece. 

    The Beethoven shows that so far, fast and rhythmic pieces are more playable by samples.  It is so good it is amazing in its perfection.  I don't think this can be done better with samples no matter how much more advanced they get because it sounds perfect.  Both pieces show the extreme musicality of Jay's playing. He does far more with expressive,  musical  performance than most performers either digital or acoustic. 

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    On the sampling vs. live question I think this absolutely does not apply anymore. 

    Because musicians today must use technology, or die. many of them are making more money than the did in the pas BECAUSE of technology.  I don't thnk any fine orchestral player lost a job because of samples.  It is hack orchestral players in show bands that lose jobs.  I know. I did.
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    I bought the Solo Strings within hours of hearing those demos. It seems to me they would be incredibly useful for any number of applications from layering to divisi to solo passages. Very nice job as usual Jay. Your a wizard at this stuff.
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    @William said:

    On the sampling vs. live question I think this absolutely does not apply anymore. 
    Normally I may agree, or not agree depending on what mood I'm in. There is no doubt that the performance factor in the Beethoven is now probably a given. The only thing left now is the sound and the ambience. -- Orchestral players won't lose any sleep over samples right now that is for sure---but if this technology goes on advancing and does not get 'stuck' as it were - there may be cause for a certain amount of insomnia in a few years time.
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    It's not because the technology is there or quasi there that sampling will automatically be a threat to real musicians. A good violinist is good because he IS GOOD not because he has a Stradivarius, so a good programmer, bearing in mind he has the right tools, will be as rare as a good violinist. What makes a violinist play well? Aside from his finger coordination it's his lifetime experience and having developed fine ear for maximum expression, if the sampling programmer is not trained in a similar way or at least show a highly sensitive ear, I doubt very much he will do miracles. I noticed that people hear about sample libraries such as VSL and expect to do the same as the demos when they have very little music training if any. I think in the future people will not be stunned anymore when they find out a work was done on computer but rather say, "good programming", and whether the job was done by a real violinist or a computer programmer, people won't care much anymore. The machine will be developed to the point where it will simply be ANOTHER tool to make "good" music. Let's remember that we are still in the renaissance of sampling and herb is Palestrina, in 5-10 years more and more great sampler/musicians will emerge and become just as important as Itzhak Perlman as contributor of music. So that's how I see, as another tool to reach the same goal depending on the musical competence in whatever ways of the programer and of course using good sampling. Jay shows a nice balance between the two and is a good example of what one can accomplish with the right knowledge and tool and therefore why not be a candidate to rival live performer, true, a piece that would require longer sustain notes and more legato will still be to the advantage of a real violinist, as William said the variance in expression is too much.... but that's only a question of time before the string lib are refined even more.
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    If Herb is Palestrina then we won't enter the Baroque period of sampling until he dies.  [:P]

    Jay- the Beethoven is incredible! 
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    @Brian said:

    If Herb is Palestrina then we won't enter the Baroque period of sampling until he dies.  

     

    Jay- the Beethoven is incredible! 

    Alright then, herb is Bach.