Well, I don't know what makes a perfect sound, but I do know that when I listen to a symphony orchestra play slow string passages, live or on CD, the notes do not sound as perfectly in unison as we are a custom to on VSL, and you could pick out individual vibratos here and there, so sweet to hear them, and to me that gives much warmth to the sound. All I know is that my ears don't lie to me. So as long as warmth is there, I'm in.

BTW, this is something I have been heavily preaching in the past. I'm extremely surprised to see a few posters comments...

@Guy said:

Well, I don't know what makes a perfect sound, but I do know that when I listen to a symphony orchestra play slow string passages, live or on CD, the notes do not sound as perfectly in unison as we are a custom to on VSL, and you could pick out individual vibratos here and there, so sweet to hear them, and to me that gives much warmth to the sound. All I know is that my ears don't lie to me. So as long as warmth is there, I'm in.

BTW, this is something I have been heavily preaching in the past. I'm extremely surprised to see a few posters comments...

KEEP PREACHING BROTHER!!!!!! [[;)]]

@muziksculp said:

Hi Herb,
Yes ! This is a wonderful [I] I think we are all in need for additional strings, 'Epic Violins' will be a great addition, maybe'Epic Celli' will follow them... [[;)]]

I don't own the Pro Edition Strings, but own some of the Horizon series titles, I will instantly buy "Epic Violins", this is a no brainer for me, highly needed !
Thanks.

there is nothing to add to this! where can we preorder it [:D] ?

Herb,

If this is recorded between January and February, when do you think it will be released?

@Another User said:

If this is recorded between January and February, when do you think it will be released?

One months after recording probably. (for download)

best
Herb

It just struck me - Herb and company are some pretty smart fellows. They wouldn't walk away from such 'commercial potential' as this library would afford (reason for not doing this until now).

It could be simply a matter of 'how to get that sound'. Don't you think 'someone' would have released it by now - if it was even possible???

A recent string library release (from a competitor to remain nameless) was so awful that my old JV strings could put it to shame (harsh and brittle come to mind - over the whole range). These people wouldn't spend 50K to do that on purpose. It must just be hard or near impossible to get this silky, warm sound from live section to sample library.

What's up with that? I know that violins have almost limitless articulations - variations, tunings, vibrato depth differences, etc - but why hasn't this sound been capture to date?

Any ideas from our resident geniuses (and I mean that seriously) - perhaps there will be a clue for VSL to ponder - while preparing and recording it.


Rob

Rob:

Really good point. Even before jumping into this world of sample orchestras I had often wondered about that. I hadn't thought it through the way you just did though. It must be very difficult or someone would, at least, have given it really good try. No one is recording bad samples on purpose. I'd love to hear what others think about how it might be done. I certainly don't know the answer.

Be Well,

Poppa

BTW: How do you guys make the quotes of others appear in the little boxes [*-)]:

There's no real secret to it.

I've been doing live string sessions since the early 80s and the formula is very simple:

1 Have enough players (i.e., don't expect "JFK" with 14 violins! [;)])

2 Don't put the mics to close

After that, it's all in the players themselves.

Looking closer...
Remember also that in actually playing a soaring, beautiful line, the violins are not in any steady state...they are constantly changing between more and less vibrato depending on the phrase, whether the phrase pauses briefly, etc. Being able to bring in the vibrato via MODW, or, possibly using the new VSL's detection engine, when a phrase pauses briefly(or not so briefly) automatically would help immensely.

Nothing is static with live players, so far, that's the biggest difference between sampled and real. Varying dynamics, and vibrato, entering and leaving at natural moments.

TH

@Another User said:

BTW: How do you guys make the quotes of others appear in the little boxes

If you want to quote a thread use the button in the right, top corner of the post you want to quote. The button says : "Quote" [:D]

VSL will get it right is my bet.

@PoppaJOL said:

Rob:

Really good point. Even before jumping into this world of sample orchestras I had often wondered about that. I hadn't thought it through the way you just did though. It must be very difficult or someone would, at least, have given it really good try. No one is recording bad samples on purpose. I'd love to hear what others think about how it might be done. I certainly don't know the answer.

Be Well,

Poppa

BTW: How do you guys make the quotes of others appear in the little boxes [*-)]:

Easy - just hit the little 'quote' button on the upper right hand corner. Enter your new post BELOW the last 'quote' word. You'll see once you do it once. Hope it helps.


Rob

@tom@aerovons.com said:

There's no real secret to it.

I've been doing live string sessions since the early 80s and the formula is very simple:

1 Have enough players (i.e., don't expect "JFK" with 14 violins! [;)])

2 Don't put the mics to close

After that, it's all in the players themselves.

Looking closer...
Remember also that in actually playing a soaring, beautiful line, the violins are not in any steady state...they are constantly changing between more and less vibrato depending on the phrase, whether the phrase pauses briefly, etc. Being able to bring in the vibrato via MODW, or, possibly using the new VSL's detection engine, when a phrase pauses briefly(or not so briefly) automatically would help immensely.

Nothing is static with live players, so far, that's the biggest difference between sampled and real. Varying dynamics, and vibrato, entering and leaving at natural moments.

TH

Good points Tom - especially #2 (I still think Epic Horns micing was 'far' away - relatively speaking.)

BUT, you record a section in the studio and you have ONE LARGE SAMPLE [:)] - in other words you don't have to worry about piecemealing it together so it sounds 'human' - naturally performed with all the swells and deeper, shallower vibratos, etc.

Could most of the problem just simply be from recording to programming (at VSL or any other developer)?

Rob

@Another User said:

BTW: How do you guys make the quotes of others appear in the little boxes

If you want to quote a thread use the button in the right, top corner of the post you want to quote. The button says : "Quote" [:D]

Christian and Rob:

Got it! Thanks.

Poppa

I think strings are very problematic.

I think VSL has done some things so well that using a live player instead might sound *different* but not necessarily *better.* That's how well I feel they done some things like the flutes, legato clarinet, and mp dynamic french horn legatos. Just scary. Staccato bassoons, that kind of thing. Amazing and jawdropping.

Strings have all the same needs, but for whatever reason, they just seem to be a problem for sampling. I think we are much closer with strings than we will EVER be with say, sax, which just seems to refuse to be sampled[;)]

But I find the patchwork approach currently needed to do convincing string phrases exhausting, and at best, pretty good re the results. Not mind blowing. Just good. And that's *at times.*

Also I find, as I'm sure we all have up here, that it depends so much on the song. I've done things with VSL/QLSO that are really impressive sounding. And I've used all the same skill and all the same samples on another song, and it sounded merely OK. Sometimes worse than OK. So it so SONG dependent....PHRASE dependent, DYNAMIC dependent. Strings seem to need so much baby sitting as opposed to just playing a beautiful legato flute line or the like.

I do think VSL is on the right track, and that much could have been solved by what we are now all suggesting up here. No one else has nailed it yet, for whatever reasons. Here's hoping Herb and the gang spend more than 3 days. I'm sure we'd all find a way to pay for truly EPIC STRINGS.

TH

Rob-- I liked the mood of the piece you posted very much. Now back to the topic at hand...

Herb-- perhaps you could do just 1 session test to see if you can capture this sound that everyone is longing for. Maybe just an octave and a half of legato playing. Learn what you can from that session. Get some feedback from your loyal users about the results of that session. And then plan a large and comprehensive series of sessions to get the job done right.

I agree with others that for me this is the single most important set of samples that I still don't have!

Best,
Jay

Herb,

As a neutral here - being that I only own the Horizon titles - can you clear a few details up?

Does this offer only apply to those who already have one of the packages you mentioned, or would it apply to those purchasing say the Performance Set now and then upgrading?

Also, (and without wanting to throw a spanner in the works) if someone can get this offer just by owning the Strings package, how will those feel who only have say the Brass & Woodwinds?

Not trying to be difficult, honest guv!

Colin

PS: My two cents on the string recordings is this. Personally, I always felt that it would have made more sense to record 1st and 2nd violins as seperate libraries so that they could be either broken down to make smaller sections or combined to create a richer sound with more movement. Currently, as soon as the violin section plays two notes they effectively double in size. I obviously don't expect that to happen in 3 sessions though, just a thought for the future.

Otherwise, any of the ideas already posted would be a great bonus.

@JBacal said:

Rob-- I liked the mood of the piece you posted very much. Now back to the topic at hand...

Herb-- perhaps you could do a 1 session test to see if you can capture this sound that everyone is longing for. Maybe just an octave and a half of legato playing. Learn what you can from that session. Get some feedback from your loyal users about the results of that session. And then plan a large and comprehensive series of sessions to get the job done right.

I agree with others that for me this is the single most important set of samples that I still don't have!

Best,
Jay

Thanks Jay. For this section (cue) of the project this worked fine - but reprising this later on I just really needed to step up the 'strings crying' factor (so hopefully the audience crys along with them [:D] . While the Director was pleased with what I gave him (horns and Clar doing this) - I think it could have been so much better with soaring, yet warm, silky triple octave high strings.

I really like the idea of the session - come back to the users for comments. Of course, the challenge is one of proprietary Intel. Not sure how to get a discussion going 'privately' other then - to be a part of the discussion one would have to have at least so many VSL titles (but if I was the competition, I would buy all that was needed, use a bogus name and find out 'how to do it right'. Dang - wish I hadn't of given the idea [8-)]

Seriously - there has to be a way to get us lowly users (in the trenches using this material each and every day) involved in the development.

Just thinking, I personally would support beta testing this out AND THEN paying for it just like everyone else - it means this much to me personally!!!


Rob

@tom@aerovons.com said:

Nothing is static with live players, so far, that's the biggest difference between sampled and real. Varying dynamics, and vibrato, entering and leaving at natural moments.

TH

That's were I see the real issue is. Even if you record the warmest possible sound with the most expressive vibrato after 10 notes like that your sound will loose its warmth.

What they should do is something similar to the "universal mode" that would allow to vary the expression through vibrato, timbre, dynamics, bowing etc.. but giving it much more flexibility of this instead of us applying them as a brain surgeon. This would work with the software of course, and I'm sure that would make a big difference.

@Guy said:

[quote=tom@aerovons.com]Nothing is static with live players, so far, that's the biggest difference between sampled and real. Varying dynamics, and vibrato, entering and leaving at natural moments.

TH

That's were I see the real issue is. Even if you record the warmest possible sound with the most expressive vibrato after 10 notes like that your sound will loose its warmth.

What they should do is something similar to the "universal mode" that would allow to vary the expression through vibrato, timbre, dynamics, bowing etc.. but giving it much more flexibility of this instead of us applying them as a brain surgeon. This would work with the software of course, and I'm sure that would make a big difference.[/

quote]

Absolutely. The algorithms for things like going from legato to staccato are great, but what you suggest is a very needed outgrowth of that very intelligent interpretation. It doesn't matter how good the sampling is if there isn't life within the notes themselves.

TH

[:O]
wow cool IDEA. go for it!add some wild fx too.